[morini]

Well all sane people know Vettel should have been Black flagged, banned for the rest of the season, Fined two years salary and had all his previous wins removed from his record.

Harsh, but fair

You'd make a great steward Neil!

Oh, and to those who are bored by this saga, blame Ferrari. They are the ones not letting it go.

[NeilP]

Ferrari's appeal against Sebastian Vettel's five-second time penalty which cost him the Canadian Grand Prix, two weeks ago has been thrown out and the penalty still stands.

The following decision has been made:

"There are no significant or new elements which were unavailable to the parties at the time".

From BBC

Thank goodness that can of worms has remained closed!

[Alonsofan06]

Talking about penalties it looks like Hamilton might be getting one of his own after FP2. It wasn't the safest of ways to rejoin with Verstappen.

[Jody Barton]

Talking about penalties it looks like Hamilton might be getting one of his own after FP2. It wasn't the safest of ways to rejoin with Verstappen.

From the onboards Lewis never really got in Max's way, he didn't block the apex at all, and at no point was he on any part of the track Max wanted to be on. So there is no forcing of a driver to take avoiding action. It wasn't clever, and I suspect he'll get a reprimand, maybe a fine but they don't give penalties out for FP1 and FP2, I'd even be surprised if he gets points on his lisence for it given he entered the track at reduced speed and didn't "floor it" so to speak. If he'd done it in the race they'd have probably looked at it and given him a penalty, even though it was nowhere near as bad as Seb's move in Canada, nor Max's in Suzuka last year, but in FP2? No way.

---

As to the Vettel penalty appeal being rejected? Right decision. They can't retrospectively remove an in race penalty, rumours are Mercedes told Lewis to not attempt an over take because of the penalty and to turn his engine down... sooooo... yeah, you can't reverse these decisions. Ferrari are spitting their dummy out here a bit over something they were never going to change. Waste of time and energy. Plus on review the penalty was the right call, Seb accelerated on the grass, and again when he hit the black stuff, so he chose to come onto the track in an uncontrolled manner... it's a fair cop to me as the rules currently stand.

---

And yep, as I thought Hamilton cleared as "driver number 44 never impeded or drove on the racing line that driver number 33 would have been taking." They also stated that Lewis was clearly aware of Max and braked before re-entering the track to let him through and a few other things. People hate Lewis, I get it. I'm bored of seeing him win, but the relish some fans had wanting to hand him 10 place grid penalties for that was laughable.

[morini]

People hate Lewis, I get it. I'm bored of seeing him win, but the relish some fans had wanting to hand him 10 place grid penalties for that was laughable.

The folks who watch the races generally don't wish that kind of nonsense Jody (I mean the neutral / non Hamilton supporting people). Hamilton certainly polarises opinions, but at the end of the day it's only the people with a beef against the guy who create the friction.

I just want to see a great quali and race this weekend. Genuinely don't care who wins it, though for the sake of competition I would like it to not be a Merc this weekend. Either way, I think we should dedicate this race to Macavity "ginger F1 fan".

[JDF_AW]

@Jody:

Also take in consideration, #33, unlike #44 in Canada, did not complain on the boardradio with this more or less similar unsafe return (and when both where in front of the Inquisition, #33 confirmed there was no harm done

Let me be very clear on this: I don't like the penalties such as the one given in Canada. But if you penalize one driver for an unsafe return due to the rules (and the rules don't make a distinction if it's FP or Race) you have no alternative and #44 should have gotten a penalty.

Praise the Lord they didn't, but these inconsistencies will keep lighting the fires on decisions the stewards make.

[NeilP]

Also take in consideration, #33, unlike #44 in Canada, did not complain on the board radio with this more or less similar unsafe return (and when both where in front of the Inquisition, #33 confirmed there was no harm done. 

Well there are reasons for that. First, Hamilton did not rejoin the track in a dangerous way he left plenty of room for Verstappen to pass which Vettel absolutely did not. Was it perfect, no but that is not the point.

Secondly, its practice why would Verstappen complain name me an F1 Driver who is not going to complain given that action. Do you ever listen? They ALL complain and Vettel may be the biggest of them all aside from Grosjean.

Substitute the word complain for report.

Let me be very clear on this: I don't like the penalties such as the one given in Canada. But if you penalize one driver for an unsafe return due to the rules (and the rules don't make a distinction if it's FP or Race) you have no alternative and #44 should have gotten a penalty.

Fact is it was a penalty it was ruled as such by a very experienced and respected ex driver. All of a sudden the average fan  (and this is NOT directed at you) knows better than someone with his experience... really is that what we have come to?

Praise the Lord they didn't, but these inconsistencies will keep lighting the fires on decisions the stewards make.

Well you say todays practice incident was the same when it absolutely was not.  What was closer was Verstappen on Raikkonen at Suzuka last year. The outcome a 5 second penalty. Imagine that!  What would have lit the fires was the decision being overturned today That would have really open up not a can but a whole warehouse of worms for the future.

[DRicc]

Also take in consideration, #33, unlike #44 in Canada, did not complain on the board radio with this more or less similar unsafe return (and when both where in front of the Inquisition, #33 confirmed there was no harm done. 

Well there are reasons for that. First, Hamilton did not rejoin the track in a dangerous way he left plenty of room for Verstappen to pass which Vettel absolutely did not. Was it perfect, no but that is not the point.

Secondly, its practice why would Verstappen complain name me an F1 Driver who is not going to complain given that action. Do you ever listen?  They ALL complain and Vettel may be the biggest of them all aside from Grosjean.

Substitute the word complain for report.

Let me be very clear on this: I don't like the penalties such as the one given in Canada. But if you penalize one driver for an unsafe return due to the rules (and the rules don't make a distinction if it's FP or Race) you have no alternative and #44 should have gotten a penalty.

Fact is it was a penalty it was ruled as such by a very experienced and respected ex driver. All of a sudden the average fan  (and this is NOT directed at you) knows better than someone with his experience... really is that what we have come to?

Praise the Lord they didn't, but these inconsistencies will keep lighting the fires on decisions the stewards make.

Well you say todays practice incident was the same when it absolutely was not.  What was closer was Verstappen on Raikkonen at Suzuka last year. The outcome a 5 second penalty. Imagine that!  What would have lit the fires was the decision being overturned today That would have really open up not a can but a whole warehouse of worms for the future.

You say he left plenty of room for Max to pass. If that is correct, why did Max (who was on a timed lap and therefore pushing it) swerve out of the way and then go off himself because he'd been unsettled? In a way I actually thought this was worse than Vettel in Canada. That was in a race, where they were both pushing, both on tyres that had done a lot of laps and Vettel was having trouble with overheating brakes. Also in a race I'm assuming that the adrenaline is through the roof and any mistake made at high speed is reacted to instinctively.
In the incident yesterday, Hamilton had slowed right down and seemed to be taking his time - more time to see if anyone was actually coming, or for the team to tell him if anyone was just about to come through. Which in my view is what should of happened. 
I've reached the 'tipping point' now where I give up watching F1. Not just because of the inconsistency in applying rules (and the over-abundance of rules, which I've never liked, even before last week), but because, as I said in another post, this is not the sport I grew up watching and loving. Since the hybrid era started its been a gradual 'falling out of love' I guess - never could see the point of hybrid engines in F1. Now Liberty have taken over I don't like the way they are taking F1: more and more street circuits etc and probably a load more rules in the future.
So farewell and good luck to you all! If F1 survives and changes again I may well be back. If not, plenty of other motorsport with some actual racing involving lots of teams out there to watch.
Signing off,
DRicc

[Jody Barton]

Clearly I need to get my teaching hat on here because there are some people who clearly need to learn some rules, and also a little bit about racing, and I'm sorry DRicc but I'm going to be quoting you as I'll be answering your points, this isn't angry or personal, it's just matter of fact.

You say he left plenty of room for Max to pass. If that is correct, why did Max (who was on a timed lap and therefore pushing it) swerve out of the way and then go off himself because he'd been unsettled?

You've answered this yourself, Max was unsettled, spooked, whatever, he didn't expect to see a car off the track at that point, so he got distracted, ran wide onto the dusty bit of the track and out breaked himself. The onboard clearly shows that. Lewis did leave plenty of space, he wasn't EVER on any part of the track MAx wanted to be on, and more importantly he left space for him, when Max is alongside Lewis during the incident Lewis had actually only just put his front wheel onto the track, and still not on the racing line, and he was on the inside of the track not forcing Max to the outside. There was loads of room, and at no point did Lewis ever come close to Max's car.

In a way I actually thought this was worse than Vettel in Canada. That was in a race, where they were both pushing, both on tyres that had done a lot of laps and Vettel was having trouble with overheating brakes. Also in a race I'm assuming that the adrenaline is through the roof and any mistake made at high speed is reacted to instinctively.

In what way was it worse? How? Because it's Lewis and we don't like him very much? Take those blinkers off and lets look at that statement, because it's disingenuous at best, and massively uninformed at worst. Looking at the incidenets Lewis was NEVER on the racing line. He also had complete control of his car. He was also aware of where MAx was at all times... and more importantly... HE took avoiding action applying the breaks and turning away from Max. Now lets look at Seb. When he entered the grass section after his mistake he increased throttle from 15% to 45% in a rear wheel drive car with over 1000bhp and insane amounts of torque, that was Seb CHOOSING to lose control of his car in an attempt to get back onto track and block Lewis. Hell, he compounded that by shifting to 75% throttle once he was back on the black stuff, he wasn't in control of his car, Seb was right on that point. Trouble is he chose not to be in control of his car because last time I checked it was his foot on the bloody throttle! Was it instinctive? Yes. Is it what most racers would have done? Yes. Doesn't change the fact it was his decision to lose control of his car so he maintained track position, that is the very definition of unsafe driving, at no point yesterday is what Lewis did unsafe.

In the incident yesterday, Hamilton had slowed right down and seemed to be taking his time - more time to see if anyone was actually coming, or for the team to tell him if anyone was just about to come through. Which in my view is what should of happened.

Exactly, he was taking his time, and was taking care, which is why it wasn't dangerous and certainly not comparable to what Seb did in Canada.
 

I've reached the 'tipping point' now where I give up watching F1. Not just because of the inconsistency in applying rules (and the over-abundance of rules, which I've never liked, even before last week)

I understand the tipping point, but the rules have not been applied inconsistently. The Hamilton Seb incident is a carbon copy of the ax Kimi incident from Suzuka and many more like it over the last 10 years, I've seen 8 similar incidents in the last 5 years. The penalty always applied? A 5 second enalty, the refrain of inconsistent application of the rules actually doesn't wash with me. The rules application over the last 10 years has been shockingly consistent.

but because, as I said in another post, this is not the sport I grew up watching and loving. Since the hybrid era started its been a gradual 'falling out of love' I guess - never could see the point of hybrid engines in F1.

No, it's not the sport I grew up watching either, as technology and science / engineering is involved it is always going to change. My grandfather hated the 80's era as there were too many driver aids and the cars were ugly... I think the sport has that effect to some degree on us all. We fall in love with one era, only to realise that at some point it stopped being our era. I dodn't think the hybrid engines are the issue to be honest, I think I agree this era is beset with piffling rules, silly penalties for component failure which necessitates drivers not pushing to save there engines, gearboxes and whatever else, and it's not necessarily what I want to watch. But that's not because of the engines.

Now Liberty have taken over I don't like the way they are taking F1: more and more street circuits etc and probably a load more rules in the future.

On this point I think I'm in total agreement with you. The street circuits and direction of travel Liberty Media are tking F1 scares the living bejesus out of me. I was asked to do a walk of the proposed Copenhagen GP circuit as I've been a Marshal a few times, and honestly? It scared me. I was with some very, very senior marshals who were expressing genuine concerns about run off areas, and road surfaces amongst many other things and we were not being listened too it seemed to me. It was just a tick box exercise so they could say they'd done it. I'm assuming though that the then race director, may he RIP, said no to it. I'm genuinely worried about the sport and where it is heading. However, if the Max / Lewis non incident is the straw that broke the camels back, well, it's a bizarre straw to end it all on.

[PapaofGags]

Now Liberty have taken over I don't like the way they are taking F1: more and more street circuits etc and probably a load more rules in the future.

So farewell and good luck to you all! If F1 survives and changes again I may well be back. If not, plenty of other motorsport with some actual racing involving lots of teams out there to watch.
Signing off,
DRicc

Hiya D.


Think we all have reservations about Liberty & some of their *ideas" & direction of travel..   

Hoping you might change your mind as I said in PM.

Either way best wishes D, enjoyed our chats here & on SKY.

Papa