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So, that 5 second penalty ...
#1
There are a number of posts in the Canada 2019 race thread on this, but I thought I would post this up in the hope of keeping the race thread on topic. I guess the incident itself is on topic" but these types of discussion usually go off piste really quick.

Anyway, I'll start by saying I think the penalty was justified. If it wasn't a time penalty then Vettel should have been asked to give the positon away on track. That would probably have been better for him as he would have had a chance to regain the position on the long straights.

This was Hamiltons view (taken from BBC sport website). I agree with all of this.

Hamilton said: "The Ferraris were really quick. I just had to put him under pressure and force a mistake because they were so quick on the back straight that even if I got close into Turn 10 he would just pull away. And he made a mistake.


"Ultimately the rules say when you go off you have to come back on in a safe manner and I was alongside and I had to back off to avoid a collision and I guess that's why they made the decision."

Asked whether he would have preferred to race on without Vettel receiving a penalty, Hamilton said: "If you try to force a guy into a wall, are you saying you shouldn't get a penalty for that? I was going to crash with him, so I had to brake.

"I was just driving the normal line so I shouldn't have been in that position of being close to crashing. It was his responsibility to avoid that, but it ended up being mine. So because of that I lost a chance of passing.

"I won. Of course I want to do it on the track. Even after I knew he had a penalty, I was pushing and thinking maybe I would get another chance. But I was just sliding around and he was too quick on the track."

Later, after watching the incident again, he said: "I watched the replays. It was obviously very close. What I can say is, if I was in the lead and made a mistake and went wide, I would probably have done the same thing, because it happened so quick and you are just trying to hold your position.

"I would have tried to squeeze him, too, and that is ultimately what happened. My opinion on that has not shifted.

"If you did not have that rule, I would have kept it lit and we would have crashed. One way or another it was going to go badly."
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#2
Deep breath..

Ok with the rules being black/white Sebastian deserved the penalty, he left the track & immediately aimed at the racing line, (like most drivers would have done) in his words "if I go left I will be overtaken" It was a decision he made, a premeditated action, so keeping position after leaving the track? did he force Lewis to brake? & did Sebastian gain an advantage keeping the position after making a mistake? he knew what he was doing imo.


BUT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhxMnYlkHeI

^^^ I want more of this, as I said, as the rules are written they were broken, I just think more rough & tumble with a bit of added niggle would do wonders for the sport & its fan base, some rules should be changed this is one of them, let them bang wheels let them be aggressive LET THEM RACE!


So with this set of rules the decision was correct, do I like this rule? NO

Quite how you stop drivers leaving the track to maintain position is another question I'll admit, maybe ban all rules & have a free for all lol Tongue
"When a man holds you round the throat, I don't think he has come to apologise" 
Ayrton Senna on Nigel Mansell, SPA 1987.   Cool
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#3
(10-06-2019, 10:37 AM)PapaofGags Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhxMnYlkHeI

^^^ I want more of this, as I said, as the rules are written they were broken, I just think more rough & tumble with a bit of added niggle would do wonders for the sport & its fan base, some rules should be changed this is one of them, let them bang wheels let them be aggressive LET THEM RACE!


So with this set of rules the decision was correct, do I like this rule? NO

Quite how you stop drivers leaving the track to maintain position is another question I'll admit, maybe ban all rules & have a free for all lol Tongue

Great clip, Damon Hil referred to that race in a tweet as well. But to be honest I can't really see how any comparisons can be drawn between that immense battle and what happened yesterday. If that had happened in Montreal then both Arnoux and Villneuve would have been in the wall, for a start off. I agree with the LET THEM RACE sentiment, up to a point. But Vettel made a mistake, he can't really expect to impede his rival on returning to the track and get away scott free? Blocking is fine while defending, by the way, but to be entitled to do it you have to stay on the track.

I would quite like to read this article, but I don't subscribe to the torygraph so can only guess what it says Wink

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/20...-canadian/
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#4
The hacks seem to agree with my take on it. Not normally the case, I have to say!

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/...-f1-papers
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#5
(10-06-2019, 12:04 PM)morini Wrote: The hacks seem to agree with my take on it. Not normally the case, I have to say!

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/...-f1-papers

Hi bud, I agreed in my post the rule's were broken, just leaves a bad taste if I'm honest, but rules is rules & it was Sebastian's mistake, cant see an appeal winning either.

Just being Devils advocate.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/motorsport...l-penalty/

Motorsport reacts to Vettel’s ‘mental’ penalty

[b]Sebastian Vettel felt the Canadian stewards stole the race win from him when they hit with a five-second penalty in Sunday’s grand prix.[/b]

It seems many from the motorsport world, past and present, agree.
"When a man holds you round the throat, I don't think he has come to apologise" 
Ayrton Senna on Nigel Mansell, SPA 1987.   Cool
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#6
(10-06-2019, 10:37 AM)PapaofGags Wrote: Deep breath..

Ok with the rules being black/white Sebastian deserved the penalty, he left the track & immediately aimed at the racing line, (like most drivers would have done) in his words "if I go left I will be overtaken" It was a decision he made, a premeditated action, so keeping position after leaving the track? did he force Lewis to brake? & did Sebastian gain an advantage keeping the position after making a mistake? he knew what he was doing imo.


BUT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhxMnYlkHeI

^^^ I want more of this, as I said, as the rules are written they were broken, I just think more rough & tumble with a bit of added niggle would do wonders for the sport & its fan base, some rules should be changed this is one of them, let them bang wheels let them be aggressive LET THEM RACE!


So with this set of rules the decision was correct, do I like this rule? NO

Quite how you stop drivers leaving the track to maintain position is another question I'll admit, maybe ban all rules & have a free for all lol Tongue

First thanks for that clip. Beautiful battle, I never saw this one before.

I agree with all Papa has said. 
Yes, Vettel left track and mantained posistion. But do we really want to neutrolize this out of racing? Don't we just want battles that can be a little rough and punchy? No driver leaves track on purpose and if you want to prevent that, design the track different, like a bit more gravel?

No, this decission the stewards made reminds me of that time Verstappen lost 3th place in US, after he cut a corner. Yes, strickly there is a rule, but sometimes you just know it is the right thing not to apply the rule.
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#7
(10-06-2019, 01:25 PM)Antilochos Wrote: No, this decission the stewards made reminds me of that time Verstappen lost 3th place in US, after he cut a corner.

How about Spa 2008?

I mean, it's not like Hamilton hasn't been on the receiving end of race denying penalties himself. What I find a bit strange is a lot of people labeling it a "racing incident". Ok, so fine, but Sebastian was the guy who made the mistake (under pressure), he deserved to at least lose the lead for making that mistake.
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#8
(10-06-2019, 01:36 PM)morini Wrote:
(10-06-2019, 01:25 PM)Antilochos Wrote: No, this decission the stewards made reminds me of that time Verstappen lost 3th place in US, after he cut a corner.

How about Spa 2008?

I mean, it's not like Hamilton hasn't been on the receiving end of race denying penalties himself. What I find a bit strange is a lot of people labeling it a "racing incident". Ok, so fine, but Sebastian was the guy who made the mistake (under pressure), he deserved to at least lose the lead for making that mistake.

I don't care about Hamilton or any driver being on the receiving end. All I care is a good race and good fighting. 
If drivers battle and make mistakes, I don't mind if they now and then get away with it. It is part of it. Just like you say that Hamilton sometimes receives the punishment, in my case sometimes he gets away with it. 


We all can feel when it is right and when not.

But that is my take. Many people, many opinions.
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#9
(10-06-2019, 01:40 PM)Antilochos Wrote: But that is my take. Many people, many opinions.

You are absolutely correct, it's all just opinion.

I can actually see both sides of the argument on this one. The main thing I disagree with you about on this particular incident is Sebastian was pressurised into a mistake and everyone seems to think that mistake should not have cost him the lead. In my opinion (there's that word again), it absolutely should have cost him the lead of the race. If he hadn't made the mistake we would not even be debating the stewards decision.

For me he made a mistake and paid the correct price. I would rather have seen Lewis pass on the track, but Sebastian prevented that by his action after the mistake. Whether that was deliberate or not is not relevant. If Ferrari do decide to appeal (at this stage they have just lodged the intention to appeal) I think they will lose.
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#10
(10-06-2019, 01:53 PM)morini Wrote:  If Ferrari do decide to appeal (at this stage they have just lodged the intention to appeal) I think they will lose.

Found this on SKY. Also they analyse the incident on Motorsport Video (10m. m31s)

Sky Sports News' Craig Slater on a potential appeal: Do Ferrari have a case?

"Basically Vettel's case is: Once I was on the grass, I lost control of my car, I couldn't really control the steering properly, there was no way I could have got back on the track more safely.


"By the hard wording of the rule, he prevented a legitimate racing manoeuvre from Hamilton and that is why the stewards issued the sanction.

"From sources in Canada I understand there were several other angles which we may not have seen that may have given the stewards the idea that Vettel could potentially have done a little bit more to get out of this.

"I don't think the appeal will get anywhere. I'd be very surprised if it even went to their Arbitration Court."
"When a man holds you round the throat, I don't think he has come to apologise" 
Ayrton Senna on Nigel Mansell, SPA 1987.   Cool
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