[morini]

So, I just read Benson's article on BBC sport

Sebastian Vettel: Ferrari will not appeal against penalty from Canadian GP - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48625044

Can anyone explain what is the difference between an "appeal" and a "right to review". What a load of bullshit, all it does is extend the doubt over the race result for longer.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the penalty the fact is the race result was correct. Lewis would have taken the lead if he wasn't blocked so the correct stewards approach should have been for Vettel to concede position and let them both fight it out from there.

Ferrari won't get the decision overturned regardless of whether they call it an appeal or a review. FFS, get a grip and move on.

[Antilochos]

So, I just read Benson's article on BBC sport

Sebastian Vettel: Ferrari will not appeal against penalty from Canadian GP - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48625044

Can anyone explain what is the difference between an "appeal" and a "right to review". What a load of bullshit, all it does is extend the doubt over the race result for longer.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the penalty the fact is the race result was correct. Lewis would have taken the lead if he wasn't blocked so the correct stewards approach should have been for Vettel to concede position and let them both fight it out from there.

Ferrari won't get the decision overturned regardless of whether they call it an appeal or a review. FFS, get a grip and move on.

Just let it go Morini. It makes your life easier.

[NeilP]

Here is your answer Morini

Article 14.1.1 of the code states: "[If] a significant and relevant new element is discovered which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the Competition concerned, whether or not the stewards have already given a ruling, these stewards or, failing this, those designated by the FIA, must meet (in person or by other means) on a date agreed amongst themselves, summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them."

From Sky Sports quoting the rule book

Personally i think they should just move on they are not going to get the result overturned anyway.

[morini]

Here is your answer Morini

Article 14.1.1 of the code states: "[If] a significant and relevant new element is discovered which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the Competition concerned, whether or not the stewards have already given a ruling, these stewards or, failing this, those designated by the FIA, must meet (in person or by other means) on a date agreed amongst themselves, summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them."

From Sky Sports quoting the rule book

Personally i think they should just move on they are not going to get the result overturned anyway.

That article wasn't on the Sky sports website when I posted earlier. I'm still struggling to see the difference - review, appeal it's all the same to me (and completely contradicts the "no appeal of in race penalties"). Besides, I can't imagine any new evidence will be found that was not available at the time. The stewards knew exactly what went on. They would have all camera angles and telemetry from both cars.

F1 is a farce.

[Jody Barton]

There's a video on the F1 official site where Jolyon Palmer analyses the incident in detail. Seb did put his boot on the accelerator, and actually gathered the side before he shut the door, so there are two breaches. He compared it with the Max and Kimi incident from Suzuka and there Max was handed a 5 second penalty. Having seen more of the telemetry and the camera angles the FIA stewards had... yeah, it was according to the rules a slam dunk penalty, and more importantly consistent.

---

Here's the link:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/artic...jOh04.html

[DRicc]

OK, not commenting on the incident: I think I said enough on another thread. Just posting 2 quotes, one from Button and the second from Vettel, which sort of sum up how I feel about F1 in general now.

"He (Hamilton) pushed Seb all the way, but he couldn't capitalise on-circuit and the way I think racing should be, which is a shame."

"Ultimately it's not the sport that I fell in love with when I was watching."

[NeilP]

That was a good watch and very well explained by Jolyon Palmer. The comparison with the Verstappen/Raikkonen is spot on (I recall thinking at the time of that incident the penalty was not severe enough).

To me I thought Vettel deliberately blocked Hamilton which is an unpopular opinion. I do not profess to know much about F1 but my immediate reaction was it was a penalty and I said so on the chat thread at the time (I say this not to be arrogant but merely to prove my opinion was not adulterated by the views of others).

It is interesting to note that most F1 journalists and reporters as the week has progressed have come out and stated it was the right decision. The only ones who have not are those that pinned their flags to the mast because they wanted close racing and that I am sad to say includes all the Sky personnel.

All that said I doubt many if any will change their viewpoint. I am no different to others I want close racing too but there are boundaries to that and I felt Vettel crossed that line in this incident. It has also deflected a awful lot away from the fact he screwed up AGAIN.

I am so disappointed in Ferrari right now again this incident was not handled properly:

A) It should have been a Ferrari employee who went after Vettel and got him to the podium not an FIA official (as per the report I heard)

B) Binottos comment about not telling Leclerc about the 5 second penalty is either incompetence or a lie. I understand it may be a way to cover up the fact that if not in public in private they are supporting Vettel as their number one driver (A point for which I will not kill them)

C) The whole team just seems weak and disjointed after Arrivabene has left. I must admit I liked the guy and thought he was poorly treated. It seems to me Binotto got the job because he was in danger of leaving the team for another.

D) The we are going to appeal and then no we are not does not look good for them. It shows indecision and a lack of clear leadership.

This is not the Ferrari we are used to. I do not know what needs to change but I hope they can get their act together soon F1 needs them especially right now.

[morini]

"He (Hamilton) pushed Seb all the way, but he couldn't capitalise on-circuit and the way I think racing should be, which is a shame."

So, this is what all the pundits (apart from Palmer and Rosberg) are saying and actually the statement that annoys me most about this whole fiasco. Hamilton couldn't capatalise on circuit because he was blocked unfairly, simple. Doesn't anyone else see that? I never said I agreed with the penalty BTW, the race could have been kept alive until the end if the stewards chose to insist Vettel concedes on track position. From that point Vettel would have had a fair chance to win the race if he could keep with Hamilton through S1 as the Ferrari is mighty in a straight line. As it was (with a 5 second penalty), that completely neutralised the race as all Hamilton needed to do was stay with him. As I will continue to say, the race result was absloutely correct in my opinion.

Vettel should not have made that mistake and should have been aware of where Hamilton was when he re-entered the circuit. He cracked under pressure and simply didn't deserve to win the race. And before anyone positons ths as Lewis fan bias I would say exactly the same if Lewis was leading and forced into that mistake by Seb applying pressure. 

"Ultimately it's not the sport that I fell in love with when I was watching."

Said by Vettel himself and a case of rose tinted specs. All of the play acting by him after the race was for one reason, to deflect from the fact that he made a big mistake under pressure (again). All the pundits are glossing over the fact that Seb lost that race himself. I'd rather see a race won due to driver skill than blatent blocking simply to keep position. What Seb did there wasn't skillful at all. He could have left room, chose not to, paid the price.

I've watched F1 since the early 70's, seen some great races and seen some dire ones through all the decades since (anyone who says all the races were all great back then definately has a rose tinted view). Lots of people are referring to the Villneuve / Arnoux battle at Dijon (which was great to watch again, I have to say). But that is not like for like, they had room to go off the track while battling for a start off. And before anyone says we don't get battles like that in the Hybrid era, I wil simply point them at Bahrain 2014.

Yes, racing is different from era to era. But I enjoy more than one aspect of the sport and continue to enjoy it for what it is.

This is not the Ferrari we are used to. I do not know what needs to change but I hope they can get their act together soon F1 needs them especially right now.

I honestly believe Mercedes would have been equally pissed off if they lost a race win in similar circumstances. However, I can't see they would handle the aftermath as badly as Ferrari have here.

As Anti said earlier, probably time for me to let thsi one go now.

[DRicc]

"He (Hamilton) pushed Seb all the way, but he couldn't capitalise on-circuit and the way I think racing should be, which is a shame."

So, this is what all the pundits (apart from Palmer and Rosberg) are saying and actually the statement that annoys me most about this whole fiasco. Hamilton couldn't capatalise on circuit because he was blocked unfairly, simple. Doesn't anyone else see that? I never said I agreed with the penalty BTW, the race could have been kept alive until the end if the stewards chose to insist Vettel concedes on track position. From that point Vettel would have had a fair chance to win the race if he could keep with Hamilton through S1 as the Ferrari is mighty in a straight line. As it was (with a 5 second penalty), that completely neutralised the race as all Hamilton needed to do was stay with him. As I will continue to say, the race result was absloutely correct in my opinion.

Vettel should not have made that mistake and should have been aware of where Hamilton was when he re-entered the circuit. He cracked under pressure and simply didn't deserve to win the race. And before anyone positons ths as Lewis fan bias I would say exactly the same if Lewis was leading and forced into that mistake by Seb applying pressure. 

"Ultimately it's not the sport that I fell in love with when I was watching."

Said by Vettel himself and a case of rose tinted specs. All of the play acting by him after the race was for one reason, to deflect from the fact that he made a big mistake under pressure (again). All the pundits are glossing over the fact that Seb lost that race himself. I'd rather see a race won due to driver skill than blatent blocking simply to keep position. What Seb did there wasn't skillful at all. He could have left room, chose not to, paid the price.

I've watched F1 since the early 70's, seen some great races and seen some dire ones through all the decades since (anyone who says all the races were all great back then definately has a rose tinted view). Lots of people are referring to the Villneuve / Arnoux battle at Dijon (which was great to watch again, I have to say). But that is not like for like, they had room to go off the track while battling for a start off. And before anyone says we don't get battles like that in the Hybrid era, I wil simply point them at Bahrain 2014.

Yes, racing is different from era to era. But I enjoy more than one aspect of the sport and continue to enjoy it for what it is.

This is not the Ferrari we are used to. I do not know what needs to change but I hope they can get their act together soon F1 needs them especially right now.

I honestly believe Mercedes would have been equally pissed off if they lost a race win in similar circumstances. However, I can't see they would handle the aftermath as badly as Ferrari have here.

As Anti said earlier, probably time for me to let thsi one go now.

Sorry, I know I said that was my last word on this thread, but this requires an answer. Firstly, are you wilfully misunderstanding what Button was saying? And the point I was making? Hamilton could not make a pass on Vettel during normal racing. Ultimately he would only have got past because Vettel made a mistake. Is that the sort of 'passing' we want to see? OK yes it has happened in the past and will probably happen again, that a driver who cannot get past will 'push' the driver in front to make a mistake. Schumacher was particularly good at it, but remember Schumey also had his fair share of crashes into rivals (some deliberate, lol). Hamilton had no way of knowing where Vettel would finally make a mistake. If Vettel had come back on track a couple of feet further to the right he would have T-boned Hamilton into that wall. I would much rather watch cars fighting and overtaking on the track, and that is happening in the mid-field. I would like to see that at the front as well, why is that expecting too much?

Now the second quote, from Vettel. Once again, of course there were some very boring races in the past (the 1990's were particularly bad IMO). But if you read all of what Vettel said (I got it from the Sky site), he is talking about F1 in a broader sense. The rule book for example must be about a foot thick I should think. Surely it could be simplified a bit? And what sports can you name that have changed technologically as much? Why is all that technology necessary? OK it shows off what the car manufacturers can do, but does it improve the racing? And don't tell me that its needed because it filters down to ordinary car owners. WEC were doing hybrid engines before F1 and if we are to believe our wonderful government, the future of road cars is all electric and that's covered by FE. How many ppl can honestly say they use all the technology in their own cars anyway? I've had my new car for months and haven't used any of it, not even the satnav. But I'm probably not a good example 

[morini]

Firstly, are you wilfully misunderstanding what Button was saying? And the point I was making? Hamilton could not make a pass on Vettel during normal racing.

Nope, not misunderstanding, just respectfully disagreeing with both you and Jenson Button. Anyway, passing here was always going to be difficult for Mercedes with the straight-line pace advantage Ferrari had. Fact is Hamilton was much quicker over the lap as demonstrated by the ease he reeled in a 5 second gap but the Ferrari was too quick on the straights. Not making mistakes (or making fewer mistakes) and not cracking under pressure when defending is a big part of the sport for me. It differentiates the good drivers from the great drivers. The very best don't make many mistakes like that when defending a lead. Passing someone because you have forced them into a mistake is as valid as passing them cleanly. Vettel didn't deserve that win because he cracked. Sorry, that’s the way I feel about it.

By the way, there has been genuine on track passing this season (and with the same protagonists). Bahrain 2019, Hamilton passed Vettel on track cleanly. Vettel subsequently span, illustrating my point that he is very mistake prone.

Ultimately he would only have got past because Vettel made a mistake. Is that the sort of 'passing' we want to see? I would much rather watch cars fighting and overtaking on the track, and that is happening in the mid-field. I would like to see that at the front as well, why is that expecting too much?

I find both equally exciting. Love to see an on-track pass. Also love to see a faster car putting a slower car under pressure until it goes off the track. All part of the same sport for me.

Now the second quote, from Vettel. Once again, of course there were some very boring races in the past (the 1990's were particularly bad IMO). But if you read all of what Vettel said (I got it from the Sky site), he is talking about F1 in a broader sense. The rule book for example must be about a foot thick I should think. Surely it could be simplified a bit? And what sports can you name that have changed technologically as much? Why is all that technology necessary? OK it shows off what the car manufacturers can do, but does it improve the racing? And don't tell me that its needed because it filters down to ordinary car owners. WEC were doing hybrid engines before F1 and if we are to believe our wonderful government, the future of road cars is all electric and that's covered by FE. How many ppl can honestly say they use all the technology in their own cars anyway? I've had my new car for months and haven't used any of it, not even the satnav. But I'm probably not a good example  

Again, there are many facets to F1 and as a sport it is not just about the drivers on the track. The team competition and the technological race has always been of huge interest and what makes F1 so much better (for me) than Indycar and any "set specification" formula. You have a defined set of boundaries you are free to develop your car within and the most technically talented engineers go away and produce the best car within those boundaries. That’s why there’s a WCC as well as a WDC. What the boundaries are is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Lots of people don't like the hybrid era, but it hasn't gone this way purely for technical reasons as there are environmental considerations too. The old V8's and V10's were by far the best sounding F1 cars, none of us would argue with that, but the technology in the current hybrid era is outstanding and mightily impressive. Who’s have thought 1000bhp was achievable from a 1.6 litre V6 with a couple of electric motors? Yes that technology is in WEC as well, but F1 has the best engineers and it has moved the technology forward. And the technology developed *does* filter into road cars. Mercedes wouldn't even be in this game if they were not learning and developing features they can put in their road cars.