[morini]

Truly, I get a sense that those people whole liked what happened today are Hamilton fans, no fans of the sport. Being honest, how can you feel good after that finish? What is there for F1 in the future?

I don't like what happend particularly, but I can fully understand why the stewards did what they did (and I agree with it too, for what it is worth). Would it have been better if both drivers crashed out? Because, Anti, if there were less experienced drivers involved that situation would have almost certainly resulted in a crash.

[DRicc]

Morini, if you are a 'respecter and admirer of Formula 1 history' then it shouldn't matter to you the nationality of the holder as long as they are the best. Personally I would respect Hamilton's records more if he had been playing on a level playing field for the last 6 years.

I am a respecter of F1 history, but I also know the sport has a massively British heritage and I feel quite proud of that. I am aware you and I will never see eye to eye about the patriotism thing (and that is fine), but there have been plenty of non British drivers who I have admired over the years. Having said that I will always support a home grown F1 driver (absolutely any sportsperson actually) over another country’s contender. I have explained why this is in other posts so won't go into it again.

On the "level playing field" comment, I can't let that one go without pointing out that Lewis Hamilton (a British person, like you and me) has one outstanding record no other driver holds. He has at least one race win and at least one pole position in every season he has competed in F1. Nobody else can say that and for me it proves he can outperform his equipment. And don't tell me the 2009 McLaren was a race winning / pole position claiming car. It really wasn’t, McLaren cars around that era were complete dogs. Credit where it is due, there aren't many F1 drivers who have dragged poor cars to pole positions and race wins.

Also, Ferrari have had a great car the last few seasons, at least the equal of the Mercedes last year and 2017 too. It is the driver in the other team made the difference.
I do apologise that this is a bit off topic for the Canada race thread, but sometimes I feel the need to speak my mind.

Sorry, this stupid site - wish I could work out how to just quote parts of things. 
You say that the McLaren cars 'around that era' were complete dogs. Well the 2009 one wasn't great, but that's about the only one. 2008 was a good car and in 2010/11 they were only second to the RB's: Button managed to win races in those cars, and most people would agree that he is no Hamilton. 
But as I have also said before, I am just frustrated that there is no real racing at the front any more.

---

Just watched the incident in the GP again on the Ch4 highlights. Have to say I can't see how that was a penalty. Neither could David Coulthard - a British F1 driver don't forget - who said that he would be very disappointed if there was a 5 sec penalty because 'we want to see racing; to see them getting stuck in, not pussy-footing around each other' etc or words to that effect. My vote goes to DC

[NeilP]

First things first. There is not going to be a consensus of opinion on the Vettel penalty anywhere and that includes on this board.

In all areas of life you rarely change peoples opinions.  That said you should read and digest those opinions and try to look at where they come from and the thought behind them.  We are just fans and some of us have a little knowledge of F1 racing and some have a lot of knowledge. I say this because if you look at the world of the professionals pretty much most (and maybe all) Sky's pundits thought it should not have been called a penalty.  However a very experienced and respected driver steward who probably knows a thing or two about racing does.

I follow very closely a lot of sports some of which my knowledge is pretty extensive and others like F1 is small (but growing) and I pride myself on being objective even though I obviously have favourite teams and players I follow as a fan.

 To me it was a clear penalty and (I called it live in chat for the record) and here is why I think that way:

1) Vettel made a mistake and that mistake unquestionably stopped another driver from passing him.

2) If Hamilton had not have backed off there was going to be a collision because there was not a cars length between Vettel at his closest point to the wall and the wall itself. Both cars would have been out of the race.

3) The fact Vettel may or may not have been able to control his car is a mute one because the bottom line is he affected another drivers race in a huge manner. That driver let me point out did nothing wrong. Why should he suffer consequences that were not his fault. In fact you could say that driver (Hamilton) caused the mistake because yet again Vettel buckled under pressure.

4) I am not sure of the exact words so I will paraphrase. During Vettels rant he made a comment that had I stayed inside he would have passed me. Now why would you make a comment like that?

Okay those are my thoughts and I am with Jody's earlier comment I am not getting into any argument and bad words those are just my thoughts right or wrong.

It was though a horrible way to end a race for Vettel and indeed all of us watching. I think he MAY find himself in trouble after his actions but personally I hope not, let it go. You were seeing a very upset and mega disappointed driver who in his own words had a race stolen from him.

Could/would Hamilton of passed him anyway?  Its possible but I do not think he was going to be able to do so. I certainly think his decision to stay behind Vettel was the correct one there is no way I would have risked it! To me many people are getting carried away with the fact it was a close, tough race decided by a penalty rather than on track. That may well be the case but lets not forget the whole incident was Vettels fault in another long line of mistakes he has made in the last few seasons.

We got a good race that sadly finished on a sour note but it was a very enjoyable and engaging race to watch.

[morini]

But as I have also said before, I am just frustrated that there is no real racing at the front any more.

There was racing at the front today DRicc, good racing with one driver applying a lot of pressure to another to the point where the lead driver made a mistake then went off the track. The second driver had all the momentum and would have taken the lead if his path was not blocked by the leading driver rejoining the track and leaving no room. Moot point (IMO) whether or not he was in control at that stage. Perhaps the penalty was harsh, but at the very least he should have been made to concede the position as he gained an advantage by blocking the other driver.

As Neil says, there will be split opinions on that penalty. I know what I think (and it genuinely is *not* because I support Hamilton).

[DRicc]

But as I have also said before, I am just frustrated that there is no real racing at the front any more.

There was racing at the front today DRicc, good racing with one driver applying a lot of pressure to another to the point where the lead driver made a mistake then went off the track. The second driver had all the momentum and would have taken the lead if his path was not blocked by the leading driver rejoining the track and leaving no room. Moot point (IMO) whether or not he was in control at that stage. Perhaps the penalty was harsh, but at the very least he should have been made to concede the position as he gained an advantage by blocking the other driver.

As Neil says, there will be split opinions on that penalty. I know what I think (and it genuinely is *not* because I support Hamilton).

Well you and I have different opinions on what real racing is then as well. There was plenty of real racing further down the order: overtaking, wheel to wheel stuff; and bit of bumping (Perez on Grosjean); Max on his usual charge. Didn't see any of those things at the front. OK Hamilton applied pressure, but didn't manage an actual straightforward pass did he? 
And as your opinion on the penalty is 'genuinely not because I support Hamilton', I ask you again: would you still think the penalty was correct if it had been Hamilton leading, making the same mistake and forcing Vettel to brake? Or if it were 2 drivers further down the order?

But hey, if there hadn't been this controversial outcome, what would we be saying about this race? Some excitement from the Ferrari fans cos they won a race at last, but other than that it would have been 'Vettel won from pole, with Hamilton in second' so just a reverse of the usual for this year.

[Jody Barton]

I just read the opinion (translated by a friend) of Massa, he said for him it wasn't rejoining the track dangerously that was the biggest problem, but leaving the track and gaining / maintaining a position because of it. Thinking about it Massa is 100% right. Vettel left the track and missed two corners and maintained position because of it... the penalty for that is actually harsher than a 5 second penalty. I can fully understand the decision of the stewards, I just don't like it even now. I go back to Monaco 2016 when Hamilton cut the chicane and then blocked Ricciardo who hadn't, I said that day it shouldn't have been a penalty (mainly because Ricciardo himself had failed to make that corner twice before Lewis did) but the rule of common sense was applied that day, yesterday they stuck to a very strict interpretation of the rules.

[morini]

I ask you again: would you still think the penalty was correct if it had been Hamilton leading, making the same mistake and forcing Vettel to brake? Or if it were 2 drivers further down the order?

Yes I would. 100%.

That is why I removed driver names in all my earlier posts on the topic. If Hamilton had made the mistake and done that same thing to Vettel then he would have deserved (at the very least) to concede the position.

Regarding your comment on the racing, well I like to see overtaking as well. But, F1 is about much more than that, it always has been. The very best drivers can give and take pressure. Some drivers crack under that pressure, some don't. For me that is a big part of the sport I love to watch. I enjoyed watching Hamilton all over of the back of Vettel yesterday. Thought it was a good and entertaining race.

[morini]

By the way, Ferrari have appealed

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/...el-penalty

Personally I don't much fancy their chances of reversing that, but there you go.

[DRicc]

I ask you again: would you still think the penalty was correct if it had been Hamilton leading, making the same mistake and forcing Vettel to brake? Or if it were 2 drivers further down the order?

Yes I would. 100%.

That is why I removed driver names in all my earlier posts on the topic. If Hamilton had made the mistake and done that same thing to Vettel then he would have deserved (at the very least) to concede the position.

Regarding your comment on the racing, well I like to see overtaking as well. But, F1 is about much more than that, it always has been. The very best drivers can give and take pressure. Some drivers crack under that pressure, some don't. For me that is a big part of the sport I love to watch. I enjoyed watching Hamilton all over of the back of Vettel yesterday. Thought it was a good and entertaining race.

Well yes, like I said: you and I have different ideas about what we enjoy in a race. I don't know how old you are, but I can remember all the way back to the mid 1960's and between then and the mid 1990's there were lots of what I would call 'real' racing battles. Of course there were some boring races then as well, but not as many as these days. You might think 'rose tinted spectacles' but I've watched film of a lot of those races and they were just as exciting today. A lot of factors went into it of course: there were battles between team mates (not really allowed these days unless you count Hamilton/Rosberg), cars that could overtake more easily - there were even a few overtakes occasionally at Monaco! And somehow, it seems to me, the drivers were much more likely to 'have a go' in an era where a small mistake could mean serious injury or death (not that I would ever want the lack of safety back). But then there were more drivers who showed their individual personalities in those days. Nowadays most of them have to tow the 'corporate line.' That's one of the reasons I prefer Vettel to Hamilton, he comes across as much more passionate about the sport. And yes he does sometimes 'lose it' and make mistakes, but to me that makes him more human. Personality is also one of the reasons I like Daniel. Some people will support a driver simply because he is the fastest driver. Maybe its because I'm female, but I look at the whole person as well as an ability to drive a car very well.
One thing I do agree with Hamilton on: the cars need less technology; it needs to be more about the driver and the cars should be more challanging to drive. Perhaps that might bring back some of the soul to the sport.

[morini]

That's one of the reasons I prefer Vettel to Hamilton, he comes across as much more passionate about the sport. And yes he does sometimes 'lose it' and make mistakes, but to me that makes him more human. Personality is also one of the reasons I like Daniel. Some people will support a driver simply because he is the fastest driver. Maybe its because I'm female, but I look at the whole person as well as an ability to drive a car very well.

See, now I'm the complete opposite. I only care about the drivers skill and talent not how likeable they may or may not be. Perfectly understandable that people like Sebastian as a person, he's a nice guy. I prefer to look at things more objectively and (providing they show proper sportsmanship) I don't care about driver personalities at all. I do doubt what you say about Seb being more passionate about F1 than Lewis. I don't see that at all.

I'm in my mid fifties, by the way and have watched F1 since the James Hunt era.

By the way, I put up a thread for the penalty incident as it might be interpreted as a bit off topic to keep discussing it in here. I've probably said enough on it now anyway and everyone knows where I stand on that race result.