[Jody Barton]

I have a very different view of Spygate to you Chloe, many in the paddock think McLaren actually got off very lightly, remember Max gave Ron 3 hearings to come clean, and I’m sorry, but saying Ron didn’t know is BS. Did you read the emails? Because I did, and not only was Ron CC’ed in on many of them, he even responded to some of them sooooo... yeah... Max hung him out to dry because giving him the chance to come clean, and he didn’t, that was the issue. Other teams when they fessed up to this stuff (when caught red handed) got off lightly because they admitted culpability. However, in that third hearing Ron was saying it was only these two guys and I knew nothing... then Exhibit A was pulled out and he was shown to be a lying toe rag!

However, even if Max did go after him and McLaren harshly it shows he was willing to do so, and more importantly did so effectively, just proves my point that he was able to keep the teams in line... and he did so. Fast forward to 3 years ago and the rumours swirling around that Ferrari had RBR schematics. It was hushed over all kept quiet and a slap on the wrists was issued, and to this day I think RBR are smouldering about it (rightly so), Max would have sorted it out and Ferrari would have been expelled from the constructors championship and received no money. Love or hate him, he kept people in check, although yes, I think he was quite pleased to catch Ron in a lie.

What did they find though?  there was Fast Fill, tyre gas and quickshift .  Odd pages or ideas that Mike Coughlan brought in to try and get some kudos in the team.  it was so trivial they didn't bother checking their emails knowing there was an audit coming.  there was no evidence they ever used it even after Max did an audit of the 2008 car and that level of copying was just normal at the time like pedro de la rosa said.  Nobody had heard of 'IP' in F1 before then.

Max was accusing Ron of using the dossier, which they never did.  As for renault, what they were caught with was far more, and actually in their computer system, and it was pretty obvious Max just told flav what to do to get off and that was all part of changing the crime as they went along, because that was the only difference Max could use.

i mean i agree ron handled it very badly, but that's a different issue.  even calling it spying was a setup, when it was a leak.

Except they did use it. They knew exactly what the Ferrari drag coefficient was and the gearing ratio’s they used. That sort of information is invaluable. As to no one in F1 not Knowing what IP was before, i’m Calling shenanigans on that statement, Tyrell were done for it, as were others. The fact McLaren were talking about the technical specification internally, and what they might mean, tells me the information was used. We’re McLaren hit hard? Yes. Was it because of the infraction? Partly. I think the bigger problem was the lack of honesty / cooperation with the FIA, which up until that point teams did openly. McLaren breached that convention, and treated the whole situation adversarially.

[Chloe17b]

I have a very different view of Spygate to you Chloe, many in the paddock think McLaren actually got off very lightly, remember Max gave Ron 3 hearings to come clean, and I’m sorry, but saying Ron didn’t know is BS. Did you read the emails? Because I did, and not only was Ron CC’ed in on many of them, he even responded to some of them sooooo... yeah... Max hung him out to dry because giving him the chance to come clean, and he didn’t, that was the issue. Other teams when they fessed up to this stuff (when caught red handed) got off lightly because they admitted culpability. However, in that third hearing Ron was saying it was only these two guys and I knew nothing... then Exhibit A was pulled out and he was shown to be a lying toe rag!

However, even if Max did go after him and McLaren harshly it shows he was willing to do so, and more importantly did so effectively, just proves my point that he was able to keep the teams in line... and he did so. Fast forward to 3 years ago and the rumours swirling around that Ferrari had RBR schematics. It was hushed over all kept quiet and a slap on the wrists was issued, and to this day I think RBR are smouldering about it (rightly so), Max would have sorted it out and Ferrari would have been expelled from the constructors championship and received no money. Love or hate him, he kept people in check, although yes, I think he was quite pleased to catch Ron in a lie.

What did they find though?  there was Fast Fill, tyre gas and quickshift .  Odd pages or ideas that Mike Coughlan brought in to try and get some kudos in the team.  it was so trivial they didn't bother checking their emails knowing there was an audit coming.  there was no evidence they ever used it even after Max did an audit of the 2008 car and that level of copying was just normal at the time like pedro de la rosa said.  Nobody had heard of 'IP' in F1 before then.

Max was accusing Ron of using the dossier, which they never did.  As for renault, what they were caught with was far more, and actually in their computer system, and it was pretty obvious Max just told flav what to do to get off and that was all part of changing the crime as they went along, because that was the only difference Max could use.

i mean i agree ron handled it very badly, but that's a different issue.  even calling it spying was a setup, when it was a leak.

Except they did use it. They knew exactly what the Ferrari drag coefficient was and the gearing ratio’s they used. That sort of information is invaluable. As to no one in F1 not Knowing what IP was before, i’m Calling shenanigans on that statement, Tyrell were done for it, as were others. The fact McLaren were talking about the technical specification internally, and what they might mean, tells me the information was used. We’re McLaren hit hard? Yes. Was it because of the infraction? Partly. I think the bigger problem was the lack of honesty / cooperation with the FIA, which up until that point teams did openly. McLaren breached that convention, and treated the whole situation adversarially.

Not doubting you're sincere for a second Jody but are you sure about your source?  Could you share it please? In this family we only know about weight distribution as the spec that was asked for by Fernando and it couldn't be put into the mac simulator it was too extreme.  Drag and gearing would have been in the dossier i guess but that's the sort of data teams calculate about each other from sound analysis and gps.  I'm not finding anything with google.  afaik the only things the audit found were the three trivial things that the team hadn't even bothered looking for even knowing for ages that the audit was coming.

also it's hard to agree that all other teams had always been honest with FIA.  Ferrari had a shroud round the pre-buckled stay especially to deceive them after all.

and maybe we ought to bring in liegate and how Max used that to finally get Ron out of F1 even though he wasn't even there.  That was the final play in the vendetta

[Jody Barton]

No of course teams aren’t “honest” with the FIA, that’s not what I said, I said when an investigation starts teams are upfront and honest. Regardless of what McLaren did or didn’t have, or did or didn’t use, they were not honest about it, with Ron Dennis going as far as to say he knew nothing about it at all... then the email correspondence proved how much of a liar he was. They did have the drag coefficient data, and gearing ratios, there’s sound analysis, which is essentially sticking you finger in the air to try and guess the wind direction, and then there are the actual detailed technical specifications. Coughlan confirmed this, as did a number of McLaren engineers at the time when they were forced to come clean.

The question for me isn’t even one of guilt, they clearly were guilty, and whether you like it or not is sort of a moot point, the FIA had been trying to stamp this out for years. There were guidelines brought in about this in the concord agreement all teams signed a few years prior. McLaren were in breach of those, and as a McLaren fan (huge McLaren fan by the way, been on a tour of their facilities a few times) I think they were caught bang to rights, and the first team to find themselves in that position were always going to be made an example of. Generally speaking teams have tried to behave themselves since. With RBR even informing the FIA and another team (reputedly Merc) that they’d been offered info.

[Chloe17b]

No of course teams aren’t “honest” with the FIA, that’s not what I said, I said when an investigation starts teams are upfront and honest. Regardless of what McLaren did or didn’t have, or did or didn’t use, they were not honest about it, with Ron Dennis going as far as to say he knew nothing about it at all... then the email correspondence proved how much of a liar he was. They did have the drag coefficient data, and gearing ratios, there’s sound analysis, which is essentially sticking you finger in the air to try and guess the wind direction, and then there are the actual detailed technical specifications. Coughlan confirmed this, as did a number of McLaren engineers at the time when they were forced to come clean.

The question for me isn’t even one of guilt, they clearly were guilty, and whether you like it or not is sort of a moot point, the FIA had been trying to stamp this out for years. There were guidelines brought in about this in the concord agreement all teams signed a few years prior. McLaren were in breach of those, and as a McLaren fan (huge McLaren fan by the way, been on a tour of their facilities a few times) I think they were caught bang to rights, and the first team to find themselves in that position were always going to be made an example of. Generally speaking teams have tried to behave themselves since. With RBR even informing the FIA and another team (reputedly Merc) that they’d been offered info.

whether i like it or not depends on the evidence and i would still like to see a source please.  it's quite a few years ago and i've seen a lot of different versions.

I don't think we know teams are honest after an investigation starts.  We know what people say, and Max was very clever about how he said things.  Benetton were let off having traction control because they said they hadn't been actually using it honest and the fuel rig thing because it was one rogue mechanic honest.  Honda kept on denying their fuel tank.  mclaren were let off initially because there was no evidence they'd used any IP, and that would've been the story if Max hadn't dug up some emails McLaren hadn't even bothered to look for because they knew they'd basically told Coughlan not to bring his secret stuff in, and even then the 3 items in them afaik were trivial - fast fill, quickshift and tyre gas.

[Jody Barton]

The evidence is Stepney’s court case in Italy, and the FIA issuing statements in 2008 to 2009 as the extent of the information retained by various parts of McLaren became clearer. Stepney and Coughlan were the ‘tip of the iceberg’ as the last statement read, and that there had been a ‘concerted effort to conceal information from the FIA’ and it is that bit that I think rankles with many over it. Check out the FIA rulings, i’m Sure you can still find them, as well as the many subsequent proclamations and warning of due diligence on a number of people involved.

[Chloe17b]

The evidence is Stepney’s court case in Italy, and the FIA issuing statements in 2008 to 2009 as the extent of the information retained by various parts of McLaren became clearer. Stepney and Coughlan were the ‘tip of the iceberg’ as the last statement read, and that there had been a ‘concerted effort to conceal information from the FIA’ and it is that bit that I think rankles with many over it. Check out the FIA rulings, i’m Sure you can still find them, as well as the many subsequent proclamations and warning of due diligence on a number of people involved.

That's not a link is it?  That's what we need to move forward Jody, as my info is that it was just the 3 trivial items they found.  And it totally begs the question to be quoting the FIA when my whole point is that Max was corrupt and vindictive and that puts Liberty + Todt a long way ahead so far.

I've googled trying to find what you've said but i haven't found it.

[Jody Barton]

And you’ve just stated what you believed to be the case as well. I followed the case with some interest at the time, my sources were newspapers of the time, as well as the FIA website, I also followed Coughlan’s plea bargain very intently and even took to buying Gazzetta dello sport at the time. I’ll see if I can find the FIA summary, but when in late 2007 it became clear there were going to be criminal proceedings in Italy the FIA also had to stop digging deeper / commenting and hand over evidence to investigators in Italy, all of which is definitely public record. To be honest a quick search found this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorspo...045983.stm

In it there is the fact in his plea bargain he admitted handing over the full 780 page technical document (although he denied sabotaging Kimi’s car vehemently, up until he sadly died), and also this:

https://web.archive.org/web/200712140727...article=60

The letter Martin Whitmarsh wrote to the FIA, and made public, where they essentially admitt they had the information, and so too did engineers in the team. I can try and find the archived FIA proclamations, but honestly, after the initial and second FIA judgements it became clear it was bigger than what was initially reported, and that McLaren’s version of events hadn’t been remotely truthful.

As to why Renault were let off? As I understand it there was no evidence that they actually had the McLaren technical data, although they voluntarily confirmed two or three of their engineers did, in particular I think it was gearbox assembly and some suspension component... but it was over a decade ago now and I can’t quite remember the full details. In short Renault held their hands up and said yes we have the info, and were found to be in breach of article 151© or was it (d)? The regulations governing IP have been drastically re-written since and I honestly can’t remember which it was, however the evidence was either destroyed by Renault very well, or it wasn’t there, in the case of McLaren that was not the case, and Ron’s defence of everyone is doing it is hardly the smartest legal defence in the world. lol.

[Chloe17b]

And you’ve just stated what you believed to be the case as well. I followed the case with some interest at the time, my sources were newspapers of the time, as well as the FIA website, I also followed Coughlan’s plea bargain very intently and even took to buying Gazzetta dello sport at the time. I’ll see if I can find the FIA summary, but when in late 2007 it became clear there were going to be criminal proceedings in Italy the FIA also had to stop digging deeper / commenting and hand over evidence to investigators in Italy, all of which is definitely public record. To be honest a quick search found this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorspo...045983.stm

In it there is the fact in his plea bargain he admitted handing over the full 780 page technical document (although he denied sabotaging Kimi’s car vehemently, up until he sadly died), and also this:

https://web.archive.org/web/200712140727...article=60

The letter Martin Whitmarsh wrote to the FIA, and made public, where they essentially admitt they had the information, and so too did engineers in the team. I can try and find the archived FIA proclamations, but honestly, after the initial and second FIA judgements it became clear it was bigger than what was initially reported, and that McLaren’s version of events hadn’t been remotely truthful.

As to why Renault were let off? As I understand it there was no evidence that they actually had the McLaren technical data, although they voluntarily confirmed two or three of their engineers did, in particular I think it was gearbox assembly and some suspension component... but it was over a decade ago now and I can’t quite remember the full details. In short Renault held their hands up and said yes we have the info, and were found to be in breach of article 151© or was it (d)? The regulations governing IP have been drastically re-written since and I honestly can’t remember which it was, however the evidence was either destroyed by Renault very well, or it wasn’t there, in the case of McLaren that was not the case, and Ron’s defence of everyone is doing it is hardly the smartest legal defence in the world. lol.

Thanks for the links i appreciate them, tho i'm gonna point out the BBC one just says "is believed to have passed a 780-page technical document to former McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan in the scandal." which we both agree about, and the archive one is martin whitmarsh grovelling to keep max mosley from taking the team to another WMSC which was reckoned to have been aimed at getting the team thrown out completely, but supposedly Bernie stepped in with the $100m fine idea as Max was going completely mad, and even so there are only "undertakings to the FIA which will impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems." which were the ones I mentioned.

also we ought to notice in that letter "McLaren has recognised that this entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention. "  so goalposts had been moved so far that now it was McLaren's fault that Ferrari had a leak and Mac didn't save them!!

I can't offer links that there were no other data items than the 3 sorry, because they don't exist, if you see what i mean, otherwise i'd be happy to.  I don't think Ron had a clue what was going on that's why he idiotically phoned Max when Fernando threatened him in hungary.  And having been trusted like that max just took the opportunity to smash ron so i will always think of him with disgust even without the pathetic prostitutes scene.

[Jody Barton]

On the Ron knowing nothing, again I point you in the direction of the McLaren board statements and the FIA findings. Ron responded to emails about the dossier. Sorry, but that is a matter of fact, Ron admitted as much latter. The letter Whitmarsh penned wasn’t ‘grovelling’ to avoid further punishment... because the punishment had already been handed out by that point and the FIA confirmed the case was closed. The offer to have the 2008 chassis looked over by the FIA was actually part of the agreed ‘punishment’ already metered out. Sorry Chloe but it does sound to me like you are holding a vendetta against Max, and willfully ignoring some pertinent information... like the fact all parties involved admitted the wrong doing eventually.

[Chloe17b]

On the Ron knowing nothing, again I point you in the direction of the McLaren board statements and the FIA findings. Ron responded to emails about the dossier. Sorry, but that is a matter of fact, Ron admitted as much latter. The letter Whitmarsh penned wasn’t ‘grovelling’ to avoid further punishment... because the punishment had already been handed out by that point and the FIA confirmed the case was closed. The offer to have the 2008 chassis looked over by the FIA was actually part of the agreed ‘punishment’ already metered out. Sorry Chloe but it does sound to me like you are holding a vendetta against Max, and willfully ignoring some pertinent information... like the fact all parties involved admitted the wrong doing eventually.

Don't try and make it about me.  This forum is supposed to be better than that isn't it? 

Yes obviously it was all part of a deal agreed, beforehand.  You haven't provided any links, except the two that backed up what I was saying, that there were only 3 trivial items found being referred to in the team.  Your assertions aren't fact, this is the internet.  Why did Ron phone Max at Hungary?  What exactly did ron say in these emails about the dossier and where can the rest of us see them?