[Gordo Sixtytwo]

Can someone please clarify the F1 MGU-H.
The FIA state that the MGU-H is a “thermal” recovery device. To be specific it recovers heat energy and converts it into electrical energy. In other words it acts sort of like a heat exchanger. It changes heat energy into electric energy.
I was on Motorsport.com recently and was corrected by a usually knowledgeable engine guy, a former F1 engineer called F1ENGINEER, who can be very self assured, that this is in fact NOT the case. He said the MGU-H is very similar to the Porsche GU-H, in that both are exhaust driven turbines, which power a generator thereby creating electric energy. In other words both are kinetic devices. Is this true? If it is, why is the FIA and press stating that the MGU-H is a thermal energy recovery device? And why is Porsche so afraid of the MGU-H? It doesn’t make sense. Furthermore I can’t find any reliable detailed information on the MGU-H. It is as if the MGU-H is a black ops top secret weapon. What is the real story on this device? Anyone know?

[Purple-banana]

The exhaust-turbine was my understanding too, however I must admit I hadn’t looked into it in any great detail.

The “thermal-recovery” part, in my mind at least, ties-in with this since it is recovering energy via the hot exhaust gases, rather than kinetic energy direct from the PU.

I can’t imagine a heat exchanger set-up would provide any substantial energy recovery in an F1 engine??

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

But where is the "thermal recovery"? An exhaust driven turbine is just that. A exhaust gas driven turbine. There is no thermal recovery. It is a kinetic recovery. Is it not? Furthermore, when Max Mosley first discussed engine energy recovery dynamics with a BMW engineer, which is where this MGU-H idea was first formulated in the mind of the former FIA President, heat recovery was a significant consideration. According to Mosley, he was told by this BMW engineer that approximately one third of an engines waste energy was in heat. Heat means temperature not velocity of the exhaust gas. An exhaust driven turbine is a kinetic process driven by the velocity of the gases. The gases could be stone cold and the turbine would still work fine. The heat is not a primary factor in making the turbine thermally energy efficient. Do you agree?

[forzaferrari]

Quick search found this...

MGU-H is an energy recovery system connected to the turbocharger of the engine and converts heat energy from exhaust gases into electrical energy. The energy can then be used to power the MGU-K or stored in Energy store for later use. It is connected between turbine and compressor of the turbo charger hence when the the hot gasses spins the turbine it generates electricity which is then used to spin the compressor hence no turbo lag. MGU-H can recover unlimited energy per lap.

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

OK thanks. This description describes that the MGU-H is not a thermal heat recovery device as the FIA state. It is a exhaust driven turbine. There is no heat recovery. It is a kinetic device. The heat is purely incidental to the velocity of the gas spinning the turbine. The electricity is generated from the spinning shaft. That is kinetic driven not thermal recovery. So why is Porsche averse to the MGU-H? If this is the case their GU-H is similar. So why the big problem attracting new manufacturers to F1?Something doesn’t make sense.

[Purple-banana]

Perhaps it is just a name to differentiate between the kinetic energy from the PU directly, and the kinetic energy derived from the exhaust gasses?

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

No I don’t think so. The exhaust gases originate from the PU. There is a mistake in either the name or the understanding of the MGU-H. Someone is wrong. The FIA clearly states that the MGU-H recovers thermal energy and converts it into electrical energy. They did not state that the MGU-H recovers kinetic energy.
Exhaust gases have thermal AND kinetic energy.

[Purple-banana]

From the Formula One Technical regulations (freely available via FIA website):

Article 1. Definitions:
1.26 Motor Generator Unit - Heat (MGU-H) :
The Heat Motor Generator Unit is the electrical machine linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging system as part of the ERS.

Article 5. Power Unit
5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre plane. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
The weight of the MGU-H (as defined in line 13 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) may not be less than 4kg.

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

Thank you PB. Well that clearly describes a kinetic pressure driven system. The MGU-H does not recover thermal energy and convert it into electrical energy as the FOM and FIA website states. It recovers KINETIC energy, which is the pressurized exhaust gases, that are used to spin the turbine which GENERATES electricity. There is no thermal or heat recovery. I wonder why Porsche have a big problem with it? I also wonder why It costs reportedly millions of Euros to develop. Sounds like typical F1 exaggeration.