So, that 5 second penalty ... - Printable Version
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RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - DRicc - 22-06-2019
Well thanks Mr Barton, for all the lessons - its just as well I've decided not to watch any more as I clearly have learned so little about F1 in the 50 years I've been watching, that I might as well not have bothered.
Its true I am not a Hamilton fan (nor a Vettel fan either), and I don't like the way that Merc is dominating the sport but there is nothing I can personally do about that. I want to see close, fair racing where most teams can at least have a chance of winning a few races, and there isn't much chance of that in F1 atm.
I'm not getting into a discussion about whether Hamilton was on the racing line or not. The fact is that Max was on a timed lap and would not expect to see a car pulling out onto the track. Its lucky that Paul Ricard has those huge run off areas - what might have happened if instead there was a wall and Max had hit it? Too many tracks have these huge run off areas, but thats yet another minus in my view, they should be gravel traps which are just as safe.
I admit that I miss the old V6's and V8's and there is too much technology (a view shared by Hamilton btw), but I do realise that F1 needs to move with the times - my beef is with the way it is moving.
Finally, the incident yesterday was merely the straw that broke the camels back: a tiny incident yes, just piled on top of a lot of other things.
I won't be reading any replies to this, I only logged on to PM a couple of people, so best wishes to all for the rest of the season.
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - morini - 22-06-2019
(22-06-2019, 09:06 PM)DRicc Wrote: I won't be reading any replies to this
That's a shame, our community is small enough as it is.
For what it's worth, I've been through eras of domination I didn't like as well (hated the Schumacher years). At least in recent couple of decades there has been a higher percentage of high calibre drivers on the grid. And there is less blatant cheating too. It isn't all bad.
Can't have it all I guess. Sorry you are disillusioned DRicc, but it goes without saying you will always be welcome on this board if you decide to return.
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - PapaofGags - 22-06-2019
Papa's sad.
I thought through PM's I'd got D to stay even if only in the Moto GP & BTCC thread, I've always got on with her even though we often had very different views, that's one of the things that makes this place interesting, hearing what others think, I will miss her input, as Morini says "That's a shame, our community is small enough as it is."
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - forzaferrari - 24-06-2019
(22-06-2019, 09:20 PM)morini Wrote: For what it's worth, I've been through eras of domination I didn't like as well (hated the Schumacher years).
Just reading through what I missed over the weekend and came across this, Schumacher and Ferrari only properly dominated 2 seasons....2002 & 2004....yes they had a run of championships over the 5 years but lets be clear and not remember through tinted views it was nothing near like the domination we have seen from Mercedes.
(Just to be clear, even being a life long Ferrari fan I do (and did) hate total domination....yes there is the "my team/driver won" feeling but those of us who love the sport want to see racing, proper hard fought action, now I dont mean I need to see passing every other lap, not at all, I love watching drivers follow another lap after lap waiting for an opportunity then seizing it when/if that time comes, but not the processions we are watching now.)
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - PapaofGags - 24-06-2019
My view, I'm a Lewis/Brit fan & I want him/a Brit to win, thing is as a F1 fan I want proper competition more than anything, the last two years were great, looking back I also enjoyed the niggle Nico could cause, he put Lewis in the position that he had to be at his best, we cant blame Mercedes for doing a great job or Lewis for winning.
Thing is wouldn't it be good for the sport if we had multiple drivers/teams fighting for the win every weekend, some might say F1 has always had dominance & it has but wouldn't it be better with more teams & drivers fighting, with top teams reluctant to put two top boys in the same car it doesn't help, Max v Lewis, Charles v Daniel & being allowed to race would be brilliant but unlikely to happen sadly, so I'm hoping for the rule changes to make for a more even playing field, though with every team only thinking of themselves I'm not convinced but I do hope they can put the sport first, we don't all agree about much here but I think we would all agree we would like more competitive racing.
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - forzaferrari - 24-06-2019
(24-06-2019, 12:02 PM)PapaofGags Wrote: Thing is wouldn't it be good for the sport if we had multiple drivers/teams fighting for the win every weekend, some might say F1 has always had dominance & it has but wouldn't it be better with more teams & drivers fighting,
Yep, even in the Ferrari "domination" years we had others winning...admittedly not so much in `02 & `04
Wins
2000 Ferrari 10, McLaren 7
2001 Ferrari 9, McLaren 4, Williams 4
2002 Ferrari 15, McLaren 1, Williams 1
2003 Ferrari 8, McLaren 2, Williams 4, Renault 1, Jordan 1
2004 Ferrari 15, McLaren 1, Williams 1, Renault 1
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - morini - 24-06-2019
(24-06-2019, 10:26 AM)forzaferrari Wrote: Just reading through what I missed over the weekend and came across this, Schumacher and Ferrari only properly dominated 2 seasons....2002 & 2004....yes they had a run of championships over the 5 years but lets be clear and not remember through tinted views it was nothing near like the domination we have seen from Mercedes.
(Just to be clear, even being a life long Ferrari fan I do, and did hate total domination....yes there is the "my team/driver won" feeling but those of us who love the sport want to see racing, proper hard fought action, now I dont mean I need to see passing every other lap, not at all, I love watching drivers follow another lap after lap waiting for an opportunity then seizing it when/if that time comes, but not the processions we are watching now.)
See, now I don't agree with this. Yes Mercedes have been dominating but you can hardly call it a whitewash with "no competition". 2018 & 2018 Ferrari basically should have won both titles, but they didn't. The reasons for that everyone knows, so I won't kick a driver when he's down, but Ferraris inability to secure the titles in those years has made Mercedes record look better than it should. This year is all Mercedes, granted, I can't put up any argument there. For what it is worth I also think that this is not a good state of affairs and would prefer to see some competition and harder racing up front. But, at the end of the day you can't blame Mercedes for that, Ferrari and Red Bull need to do a better job. Ferrari have dropped the ball this season and gone for a car fast in a straight line (ignoring the compromise of "maximising lap time at as many of the 21 circuits on the calendar"). In hindsight that was a big mistake.
Going back to the Schumacher era, sorry but I was a Damon Hill supporter back then and all I remember was Schumacher wining, winning, winning, then winning some more. I've blocked most of it out of my memory but as much as I hated every second I did not stop watching. I just sucked it up like every other non Ferrari fan did. I don't give any credence to the "fans" who say they will stop watching the sport because Hamilton and Mercedes can't stop winning.
Things I prefer about this era to the Schumacher era :-
1. There is inter team competition allowed, in some teams anyway.
Was none of that back then and the Ferrari was also a dominant car so they didn't need to continually stamp on Schumacher’s teammates the way they did.
2. All teams run the same tyres in this era.
Absolutely hated the fact that Ferrari gained an indeterminate advantage by running different tyres. That is not the same (in my book) as gaining a performance advantage through engineering excellence.
3. The quality of the competition on the grid is higher.
There are more very good drivers spread through the grid than there were then. You might think that isn't a very objective thing to say but I honestly believe todays drivers are fitter and closer matched than a lot of the field in the 90's. Yes, there were some stand out talented drivers back then, but there was also an awful lot of "filler" too.
4. Better sportsmanship between drivers.
And I'm not talking about drivers flouncing off in a huff when they don't win (that has always been the way) I am talking about the way they compete. i.e. not a win at any cost mentality (ok, I'll say it - I don't like cheating)
If you think I'm viewing life through rose tinted specs then fair enough. But them’s my views
One thing I do agree on is wanting to see better racing. Unfortunately, at this exact point in time that is only going to come from inter team competition. Some people are already writing Bottas off this year but I am hoping he will put up a strong challenge. I also want to see Ferrari let Vettel and LeClerc race properly. They've already lost the titles this year so they may as well let Charles off the leash and let him and Seb duke it out.
I know this post is nothing to do with the thread title, but I had to reply.
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - morini - 24-06-2019
(24-06-2019, 01:07 PM)forzaferrari Wrote: Yep, even in the Ferrari "domination" years we had others winning...admittedly not so much in `02 & `04
Wins
2000 Ferrari 10, McLaren 7
2001 Ferrari 9, McLaren 4, Williams 4
2002 Ferrari 15, McLaren 1, Williams 1
2003 Ferrari 8, McLaren 2, Williams 4, Renault 1, Jordan 1
2004 Ferrari 15, McLaren 1, Williams 1, Renault 1
Missed this post as I was writing a reply to your earlier one.
Anyway
2014 Mercedes 16, RBR 3
2015 Mercedes 16, Ferrari 3
2016 Mercedes 19, RBR 2
2017 Mercedes 12, Ferrari 5, RBR 3
2018 Mercedes 11, Ferrari 6, RBR 4
Not really sure exactly what you are trying to show with thsose stats TBH. Yes Mercedes were well ahead in 2014/15/16 but at least the wins were split between team mates (i.e. inter team competition). I don't know the stats but I can guess how many of those Ferrari wins went to Schumacher.
2016 was the most crushing Mercedes year and even then the wins were shared 10 - 9 (in Hamltons favour) so there was a real tense inter team battle.
Dominance is dominance, whichever way to try to slice and dice it.
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - forzaferrari - 24-06-2019
yep, without doubt we all have our own opinions, I wasnt having a dig about "rose tinted glasses" at all bud I was putting across my view that some of those winning years was closer than some think or choose to remember...in 2000 Schumi only won the WDC by 19 points & Ferrari the WCC by 18 (yes there was less points on offer back then) `03 Schumi only won the WDC by 2 points from Kimi.... & Ferrari only won the WCC by 14 from Williams.
1, as we discussed previously whether we like it or not Ferrari opt to run their team in this fashion
2, tyres are somewhat irrelevant as that was the format back then....even if it advantaged some more than others...we could argue "x" tyre manufacturer should have done better, anyway different tyre manufacturers goes right back to the 50`s...I think there was 4 or 5 manufacturers at these times.
3, yep, its a different time, drivers (since Schumacher raised the bar) back then were nowhere near the athletes they are today, nor did they have todays aids to help with their driving...anyway I was referring more to dominating cars
4, being a Ferrari & Schumacher fan I shall "plead the fifth" on this subject lol
I will add this...funny how there is ZERO mention of cheating this year??? (yes Im on the wind up & not targeting you)
RE: So, that 5 second penalty ... - Jody Barton - 24-06-2019
On the cheating score I believe there has been a question put into the FIA about Mercedes rear wheel steering engine maps and whether they are a breach of traction control rules... so maybe German cheating bastards? As to Ferrari's double electric loom from last season... It's gone hasn't it.