[NeilP]

Interesting debate.

As for what is worth more clearly people on here are have differing views, coincidentaly so do some F1 teams. Black, your "bullshit Neil" argument goes right out of the window when the number two team in F1 has very clearly stated that it does put the Drivers ahead of the constructors. It may your opinion but clearly not theirs. Make of that what you will. As for the prize money argument it is probably only relevant to the eight teams aside from Red Bull and Mercedes especially with the cap restrictions being in place. Neither of these two teams are short of money to invest and whilst more is nice there is only so much they can spend these days. Add to that the vastly reduced prize money this year due in main to the Worldwide Covid situation and there you go the rewards are pretty much halved. That said I am sure Mercedes would love to add an 8th consecutive title to their storied history and I think they will.

I do not think it is even a debatable point that Red Bull are all in on Max Verstappen, they have been since Ricciardo's last season there which is exactly why he left. Maybe a condition of Max staying at Red Bull was his clear number one status and a commitment to develop the car with him to the forefront of anything. You just know Mercedes and probably Ferrari were just waiting to jump on any opportunity to sign him.

A point I feel is missing here is in reality the two Championships pretty much go hand in hand. Only three times in the last 30 years has the World Constructors title been won by a none World Champions Drivers team. Schumacher for Bennetton in 1994, Mika Hakkinen for McLaren in 1999 and Lewis Hamilton for McLaren in 2008.

[PapaofGags]

Interesting debate.

Only three times in the last 30 years has the World Constructors title been won by a none

World Champions Drivers team.  Schumacher for Bennetton in 1994, Mika Hakkinen for McLaren in 1999 and Lewis Hamilton for McLaren in 2008.

Yeah, to be fair they are all quite good.         

[PaddyB]

Just a clarification please.

When a team wins the WCC don't all of the team get a bonus/ piss up / recognition ( on CV) etc?

If the driver wins a WDC without WCC I don't imagine that is the case.

"I was part of the world constructors championship winning team in 2021" looks better on the resume than "I was at red bull when max won his title".

If I was an engineer at RBR, Horners comments wouldn't impress me one bit, in fact it would significantly demotivate me just working for the driver, not for the rest of your colleagues and team-mates. This is irrespective of Max, in my book it is just bad management even if it is true, he shouldn't have said it.

[morini]

Interesting debate.

As for what is worth more clearly people on here are have differing views, coincidentaly so do some F1 teams. Black, your "bullshit Neil" argument goes right out of the window when the number two team in F1 has very clearly stated that it does put the Drivers ahead of the constructors. It may your opinion but clearly not theirs. Make of that what you will.  As for the prize money argument it is probably only relevant to the eight teams aside from Red Bull and Mercedes especially with the cap restrictions being in place.  Neither of these two teams are short of money to invest and whilst more is nice there is only so much they can spend these days. Add to that the vastly reduced prize money this year due in main to the Worldwide Covid situation and there you go the rewards are pretty much halved. That said I am sure Mercedes would love to add an 8th consecutive title to their storied history and I think they will.

I do not think it is even a debatable point that Red Bull are all in on Max Verstappen, they have been since Ricciardo's last season there which is exactly why he left.  Maybe a condition of Max staying at Red Bull was his clear number one status and a commitment to develop the car with him to the forefront of anything.  You just know Mercedes and probably Ferrari were just waiting to jump on any opportunity to sign him.

A point I feel is missing here is in reality the two Championships pretty much go hand in hand.  Only three times in the last 30 years has the World Constructors title been won by a none World Champions Drivers team.  Schumacher for Bennetton in 1994, Mika Hakkinen for McLaren in 1999 and Lewis Hamilton for McLaren in 2008.

Can't agree with you here Neil, I'm afraid as black has it spot on. Yes, there have been years where the winners of the two championships have come from different teams, but those years are few and far between. All teams, Red Bull included, set out to win both championships but prioritise the constructors title. The reason dick head Horner disingenuously states they will sacrifice the constructors and the drivers has more "prestige" is because he knows full well Red Bull have very little chance of winning the WCC!

Why is that? Ok, I'll tell you. For years they prioritised one driver in the hope of making him the youngest world drivers champion (they failed on that target this time) at the expense of the driver in the other seat. So far that policy has not worked very well for the team for the last 5 years. All of the early hype about Max came from Horner and Marko, with a lot of help from the media. The fact is Max Verstappen has yet to win any single seater championship where several of his less hyped and equally talented contemporaries have found success in feeder series. 

Verstappen's career has been mismanaged IMO as he should have come through the junior formulas like everyone else. And before anyone pipes up that I hate Max, I can assure you I don't. I rate him very highly and he will almost certainly be a champion at some point (maybe even this year). As a team Red Bulls biggest mistake was favouring him over Dan Ricciardo. If they had managed to keep the two of them (and treated them equally) then Red Bull would be a formidable team now and Max would be a better driver for it. They only wanted success for one man though.

Say what you want about Bottas, during his tenure with Mercedes he has been able to collect enough points to ensure Mercedes keep winning the WCC. That is exactly why the team like him and have kept his services for so long, because the constructors is the main prize whatever you or Horner may say to the contrary.

[edit]
Paddy also made a very valid observation while I was typing that. Well said.

[PapaofGags]

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/for...2021-10-10

Enjoy lads.

[NeilP]

I thought a interesting race more than an exciting one. As a Hamilton fan I am still trying to decide if the wet conditions helped or hindered him. Personally I finally came to the conclusion it hindered him he looked very, very fast today and I think he could have got to P3. I also cannot make my mind up if pitting him when they did was the right thing to do. Sure, he suffered from major graining but would his tyres have hung on to the end, was the risk of a blowout or major performance drop off worth it? In the end regardless of the result and his obvious annoyance and disappointment I think Mercedes made the right call.

The incident with Perez and Hamilton was great driving in the conditions by the two of them. It makes me laugh how when Verstappen does something like that its a great move but when Hamilton does it it should have been a penalty. I guess it depends which side of the fence you sit on. Personally it was just fine in my book by both drivers.

I thought Leclerc would be strong here and he was, he ran out of tyres just as I personally thought Hamilton would have towards the end but pitting him that little bit earlier protected his 4th place for sure. Sainz was also very strong today, good to see Ferrari competing again.

Verstappen should be pleased with second place he never really threatened Bottas but also never looked like losing the position either. Probably one of Perez's best races for Red Bull. I have not seen any of the post race interviews so I guess I may have missed some things in my thoughts here.

Another solid performance by Gasly, I would like to see him get up into a top car but of course there are only so many seats available.

Disappointed with McLaren today but they never really shone through all the practices. When it comes to practice sessions more than ever I think we must all learn to not take pretty much anything we see. Verstappen struggling, yeah, really.

Mazepin again proving he does not really understand racing he nearly took Hamilton out when under Blue flags. Not the first time for him either he needs to sit for a race in my book he has been a mobile road block and a dangerous one at that all year long. Hopefully he will gone after this season.

Good race for the Mercedes in the Constructors Championship which I am sure will please an element of participitants on this board, outscoring Red Bull 35-30 and increasing their lead to a healthy 36 points. On that point...

"Can't agree with you here Neil, I'm afraid as black has it spot on. Yes, there have been years where the winners of the two championships have come from different teams, but those years are few and far between. All teams, Red Bull included, set out to win both championships but prioritise the constructors title. The reason dick head Horner disingenuously states they will sacrifice the constructors and the drivers has more "prestige" is because he knows full well Red Bull have very little chance of winning the WCC!"

Which is exactly why Horner made the comment about the Drivers Championship Morini. Your observations are exactly in line with Horners. He knows he cannot win the Constructors so the team is focusing on winning the Drivers Championship for which they have a much better chance of doing. I do not see anything wrong with that at all. If any team other than perhaps Mercedes made that comment you would be laughing your head off as nobody but Mercedes or Red Bull stand any chance of winning it anyway. Would you and Black discredit them for saying so too? How about the fact it is known many teams had pretty much given up on this season in prepartion for next season and the new rules, should we call them out too because clearly they all gave up even before the season started.

On to the USA, My "Home" GP. I love the circuit and Hamilton needs to win here. If Verstappen finishes ahead of him it is going to be tough sledding for Hamilton to catch him. Every race is super critical for them both neither can afford a major mistake or a let down by their car.

[morini]

I thought a interesting race more than an exciting one.  As a Hamilton fan I am still trying to decide if the wet conditions helped or hindered him. Personally I finally came to the conclusion it hindered him he looked very, very fast today and I think he could have got to P3.  I also cannot make my mind up if pitting him when they did was the right thing to do.  Sure, he suffered from major graining but would his tyres have hung on to the end, was the risk of a blowout or major performance drop off worth it?  In the end regardless of the result and his obvious annoyance and disappointment I think Mercedes made the right call.

Half decent damage limitation, but in hindsight I think Lewis could have hung on if the team had a bit of faith. However, in the grand scheme of things I think the strategists did make the right choice. Give up 5 points to be assured of finishing. I bet the decision was not an easy one and I'm glad I did not have to make it. Lewis no doubt feels he could have finished behind max and done a superb damage limitation job.

Good race for the Mercedes in the Constructors Championship which I am sure will please an element of participitants on this board, outscoring Red Bull 35-30 and increasing their lead to a healthy 36 points.

Not wanting to be pedantic, but Mercedes scored 36 points, RBR 33. Net 3 points to Mercedes (who will win the constructors because that is what matters most to them). If they also get Lewis over the line then that will be a big bonus.

On that point...

"Can't agree with you here Neil, I'm afraid as black has it spot on. Yes, there have been years where the winners of the two championships have come from different teams, but those years are few and far between. All teams, Red Bull included, set out to win both championships but prioritise the constructors title. The reason dick head Horner disingenuously states they will sacrifice the constructors and the drivers has more "prestige" is because he knows full well Red Bull have very little chance of winning the WCC!"

Which is exactly why Horner made the comment about the Drivers Championship Morini.  Your observations are exactly in line with Horners.  He knows he cannot win the Constructors so the team is focusing on winning the Drivers Championship for which they have a much better chance of doing. I do not see anything wrong with that at all.  If any team other than perhaps Mercedes made that comment you would be laughing your head off as nobody but Mercedes or Red Bull stand any chance of winning it anyway.  Would you and Black discredit them for saying so too? How about the fact it is known many teams had pretty much given up on this season in prepartion for next season and the new rules, should we call them out too because clearly they all gave up even before the season started.

What are you saying? I'm not sure myself. Are you arguing for or against your earlier comment that the WDC is what matters to the teams?

Shouldn't Horner be aiming for the constructors first, drivers second. Like every other top team? Paddy made a great point earlier, would you want to work for a team who only backed one employee? I wouldn't.

On to the USA, My "Home" GP.  I love the circuit and Hamilton needs to win here.  If Verstappen finishes ahead of him it is going to be tough sledding for Hamilton to catch him. Every race is super critical for them both neither can afford a major mistake or a let down by their car.

A great circuit layout, the best Tilke track by far, but it is in totally shite condition. I'm not sure what to expect at COTA to be honest. I hope Lewis can claw something back here, but who knows. Mercedes were the best outfit at Istanbul Park. will they be the best at COTA? WHo knows? It will be interesting finding out.

I'm not losing faith. I want Lewis to make history this year so have everything crossed he brings it home.

[black]

Does anyone else think that race would have been far more entertaining if the track actually dried out a bit more? Static, damp conditions all the way through. Quite weird really. Hamilton was patient throughout and I think showed he had the pace when needed. Track didn't come to anyone though.

FWIW I think Mercedes did the right thing calling Hamilton in for new tyres late on. I know Ocon got to the end on 1 set of inters, but it was a massive risk. Better to give away 5 points than score zero.

Congratulations Valtteri Bottas. Perfectly executed and did your team mate a nice favour in the WDC by denying Max Verstappen both the win and a fastest lap. In fairness, Mercedes were the car to beat car all weekend. Perfect job. Long may it continue. Roll on COTA.

[morini]

Better to give away 5 points than score zero.

I watched the race live but did not see any post race analysis as we had people round for food & drink. I said similar and I imagine that is how the Merc strategists are selling the decision as well.

What did Lewis himself have to say? Will watch the recording later to listen to the reactions, but I would imagine he wasn't all that impressed?

[edit]
Now taken the time to read some of the post race comments. Mercedes 100% took the correct option calling him in. Suck it up Lewis, be grateful for the 10 pts and move on buddy.

Hamilton also admitted his "worry" about the life of the tyre but also complained of struggling for grip after fitting fresh intermediates.


"The tyres are bald so you don't know how far they're going to go, and there's definitely the worry of the life of the tyre," said Hamilton. "But also I wasn't really that fast at the end there, I was struggling, had low grip and I'm not really sure why.

"I think probably in hindsight I should either have stayed out, or come in much earlier because when you come in with eight laps to go you don't have the time to go through the graining phase of that medium tyre on a drying track. Then I went through this whole sliding phase where I nearly lost more positions. A bit frustrating, but it is what it is."

[NeilP]

What are you saying? I'm not sure myself. Are you arguing for or against your earlier comment that the WDC is what matters to the teams?

I am not arguing about anything, I made a statement I stand by it whether I am right or wrong. One point I made was that 90% of the time (27/30 last 30 years) the winning WDC driver has come from the winning WCC team. The two are not mutually exclusive.  In public I have no doubt opinions of the team principles will favour the Constructors over the Drivers. In private who knows.

Shouldn't Horner be aiming for the constructors first, drivers second. Like every other top team? Paddy made a great point earlier, would you want to work for a team who only backed one employee? I wouldn't.
or
The reason dick head Horner disingenuously states they will sacrifice the constructors and the drivers has more "prestige" is because he knows full well Red Bull have very little chance of winning the WCC!

You seem to be disagreeing with yourself here which statement do you want to stand by?  When in any sport you are in a given position at a given time you have to be realistic about what you can achieve from that point.  A soccer team being down 3-0 with 10 minutes to play probable realises all things being equal they are not going to win.  That is why Horner made the  comment about prioritizing the Drivers he realizes the Constructors is in all probability not doable at thsi point.  I am sure at the start and indeed during the season he wanted both!!! Something you yourself made a point of saying. Also give Horner his due he is absolutely correct teh Drivers Championship does have far more prestige than the Constructors

I'm not losing faith. I want Lewis to make history this year so have everything crossed he brings it home.

I am certainly not losing faith either I will give up on Hamilton when it is no longer Mathematically possible. I think today was a quite satisfactory result. Yes disappointing in some ways but personally speaking from a Hamiltons fan point of view if you offered me this result pre-race I would have taken it.

We nearly always disagree Morini, that makes for interesting discussion!