[NeilP]

The rules are pretty clear. Red Bull doing the smart thing that frankly any other team would do in their position, its common sense.

Personally speaking I would want Mercedes and Hamilton to do exactly the same in that position especially at this circuit where overtaking for the top teams is pretty straight foreward.

Verstappens penalty at Monza is still a penalty because if that three grid drop was not in place they would probably not take a new engine here.

[black]

So you would like the rulebook to be re-written to suit your favoured driver?.......Would you say the same should the roles be reversed in the future?....I think not!

Then I'm afraid you think very wrong!

It's nothing to do with re-writing the rulebook to "suit my favoured driver" either, more about a general sense of fair play. Doesn't matter who the team or driver are, if they've picked up a penalty it should be served. If the teams are currently allowed to double up on penalties like this then the rules are wrong. Simple as that.

[forzaferrari]

Then I'm afraid you think very wrong!

It's nothing to do with re-writing the rulebook to "suit my favoured driver" either, more about a general sense of fair play. Doesn't matter who the team or driver are, if they've picked up a penalty it should be served. If the teams are currently allowed to double up on penalties like this then the rules are wrong. Simple as that.

The rules are the rules regardless of you thinking them wrong.......as Neil says its the smart move for RBR at this circuit

[black]

The rules are pretty clear.  Red Bull doing the smart thing that frankly any other team would do in their position, its common sense.

You are both missing the point I'm making. The FIA should realise it isn't right to allow this, that is what I am saying.

I don't doubt you both that it is "in the rules", but in my eyes Max Verstappen has incurred two penalties but only served one. Another case of the FIA making a balls of something which should be very simple.

---

The rules are the rules regardless of you thinking them wrong.......as Neil says its the smart move for RBR at this circuit

Then it definitely needs changing in my opinion.

Red Bull are being smart, but it doesn't detract from the fact they have also nullified Verstappen's mistake from Monza. If the roles were reversed I've no doubt Mercedes would do it as well, but that doesn't make it right (or sporting).

Yes, I admit it, I would like to see this "rule" changed.

[NeilP]

I totally understand your point Black, we all have thoughts on rules we would like to see changed. Me personally I would like to see pit stops under safety cars stopped. That is pretty much all about luck.

The thing about this penalty you need to bear in mind is this. For this particular race he is not getting any form of advantage. Lets be objective; if he finished 3rd or 4th in qualifying is there any real doubt he would finish in the top four or even three. Realistically unless he gets very lucky I highly doubt anything higher than sixth or seventh is achievable. In that respect its pretty much a even position.

Remember Red Bull were never absolutely sure they would need another engine although it was very probable so to some degree it is a gamble especially with the positions being so tight.

"Sporting" is an interesting comment and in pure sporting terms you may have a point. BUT, the fact the rules allow it and it is open to all teams and drivers at all times through the season its a fair move.

[morini]

Yes, I admit it, I would like to see this "rule" changed.

Ooohhh, an interesting exchange. That makes a very pleasant change!

I see Forza and Neil have chucked the rule book in your direction. Fair enough, as we know this *is* allowed in the rules (rightly or wrongly). For what it's worth (sweet bugger all), I too think the FIA need to rethink the way they approach this particular "loophole". I don't (can't) blame RBR for taking full advantage, but I am completely behind you in agreeing that Max's 3 place grid drop becomes null and void. That is wrong, no if's or buts, any argument against it is flawed, he has avoided a penalty. In a sporting context Red Bull have two separate penalties and they should take both in isolation.

It will never happen though, so the best you can hope for is that karma evens things out in the long run.

[The Professor]

The thing about this penalty you need to bear in mind is this. For this particular race he is not getting any form of advantage.

I don't post here often, but I don't buy this at all. Engine penalties suck, but they are the same for all teams so we can assume a level playing field in that respect.

Black makes a damn good point in that Red Bull are allowed to combine their engine change penalty with a sporting penalty given for an on track infringement. Logic tells me that isn't really fair. It might be allowed within the current rules but both penalties should have their own impact. FIA fug at its very best.

[NeilP]

There are two issues in play here:

1) Whether you like it or not the current rules allow this to happen and it has been utilized many, many times before. Whether it is sporting or not is not even a debate.

2) Is the rule fair and just?  This is absolutely a debateable point. That said there are many things that are unfair in the way the rules are applied.  I can start with being allowed to stop under a safety car.  I can mention a 5 second time penalty for gaining an advantage and as the race continues the 5 second penalty becomes meaningless. I have never liked a safety car anyway a driver can build a nice position for himself and through no fault of his own lose it all. A car feigning issues at the end of a race and retiring which enables them to change parts for the next race with no penalty.

Personally speaking I would have no problem with the rules being changed in between seasons. What however do you do when a driver gets a grid penalty and has no choice but to take a new to start the race? Or.  What do you do with a driver who has taken a new engine for a race and then gets a three grid penalty for say an infringement during practice or qualifying. In both these incidents the race has not happened yet so you cannot penalize him for the race afterwards under the current rules.

[forzaferrari]

1) Whether you like it or not the current rules allow this to happen and it has been utilized many, many times before.

This ^^^

edit: On a different note, what did you guys make of this from Bottas (Sky F1 Gossip column)

Bottas also suggested he felt he hadn't been allowed to challenge for the title earlier in the season.

“I don’t know really (if I’m allowed to compete for title). You’ll have to ask Toto. For sure there is still a reasonable gap in the points and earlier on in the season, I felt like I wasn’t really any more allowed to be in contention."

[NeilP]

Bottas also suggested he felt he hadn't been allowed to challenge for the title earlier in the season.

“I don’t know really (if I’m allowed to compete for title). You’ll have to ask Toto. For sure there is still a reasonable gap in the points and earlier on in the season, I felt like I wasn’t really any more allowed to be in contention."


I am calling BS on that comment. Once Hamilton had established a sizable lead Bottas became his wing man as he has pretty much every season.  A bit like the discussion above nobody really likes it, it is to a degree unsporting but just as the argument above it is not breaking any rules.

To me that is Bottas sticking up for himself (Good for him) but the truth of the matter is he simply is not good enough to challenge Hamilton just the same as Perez is not good enough to challenge Verstappen.