2019 Abu Dhabi GP
#21

So Jody, if you were being either mischievious or speculative, would you say that this was due to:

a) Increased downforce for cornering causing drag etc on the straight
b) Something else being burned in addition to the fuel
c) Something "clever" being done with the fuel sensor arrangement which means more fuel can be burned for periods.
d) All of the above

If this is off topic im happy to delete or move it.
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#22

I think given the multiple clarifications the FIA have made since Mexico it would appear that Ferrari may have found a way around the single fuel flow sensor. They may have been storing fuel from the out lap some where and then deploying the extra fuel during a qualifying lap, and therefore not technically breaching the fuel flow regulations. I think that it is speculation at this point, but I do believe given the dip in engine performance, including on an entirely new unit for Leclerc, there's plenty to suggest they'd been bending the rules. Only the FIA can say whether or not they broke them.

The Ferrari concept was low downforce and low drag. They've obviously added downforce to the car as the season has gone on, but so to have Merc and Red Bull, and you could argue the later two have added way more than Ferrari. The truth is Ferrari are no quicker really in the twisty stuff, whereas as both Mercedes and Red Bull are evidently quicker now than they were at the mid point of the season in the twisty stuff, so the loss of speed doesn't seem drag related.

I do not believe either that Ferrari were burning something other than fuel, or what they're allowed to burn, because simply put there are multiple sensors within the exhaust system monitoring the fumes coming from the combustion chamber, and if they'd been burning other chemicals then I'm fairly sure the FIA would have found it. The most plausible explanation I've heard is that they siphoned fuel off on the out lap and stored it somewhere behind the fuel flow sensor, and then it was used on the next lap when the quali mode was turned on.
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#23

(01-12-2019, 11:02 AM)PaddyB Wrote:  So Jody, if you were being either mischievious or speculative, would you say that this was due to:

a) Increased downforce for cornering causing drag etc on the straight
b) Something else being burned in addition to the fuel
c) Something "clever" being done with the fuel sensor arrangement which means more fuel can be burned for periods.
d) All of the above

If this is off topic im happy to delete or move it.

We could have a thread in the technical section for speculation on what Ferrari have been up to (potentialy up to). But seeing as it is so quiet on here lately I don't see the harm in leaving it here.

a) I think it is pretty clear that much of the straight line speed difference is because the Merc and RBR carry more downforce and consequently drag. Ferrari opted for a very slippery / low downforce approach this year. That is a benefit at too few circuits and when all is said and done the wrong approach over a full season.
b & c) Ferrari have had a "turn it up to 11" setting since summer up til Mexico. We can all speculate about how they did that but rival teams think whatever it is "it is dodgy". Probably because small gains are now very hard to come by. Me, I think they had "something" that they have since taken off the car. That kind of suggests it might not have been 100% within the rules, but maybe they are just playing it safe? After all we are now into the dead rubber part of the season and there is little to be gained for the team. Keep their powder dry for 2020? Who knows?
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#24

PS we must also acknowledge that Ferrari have changed their suspension system to one closer resembling the one they used in winter testing. That has certainly helped how their car has used its tyres both in qualifying, but more importantly in the race. So it is fair to point out that some of the post summer gains is definitely down to the engineering skill at Ferrari. Prior to summer their car shredded tyres, post summer it's been far better.

Morini I guess we'll see next season if they were keeping their powder dry. I think the pre-summer break straight line speed advantage was mostly due to low downforce on the Ferrari. That certainly appeared the case when you look at how crap the thing was at carrying speed through corners. It was worse than the McLaren and Renault for apex speed up until Germany... and it's still nip and tuck with the McLaren.

It was the post summer speed boost that really opened my eyes. It is as a massive advantage, and as you say, it fell well outside the marginal gains you'd expect at this stage of development with these engine regs. After 6 years we're witnessing convergence. As you'd expect, and differing strategies about how to deploy the bhp, but that's mostly it. There are differences in ICE and ERS and we think the Merc ICE is still the best out their, but it seems still to lag behind others on the ERS side. It's swings and roundabouts at this point, which is why the straight line speed gap looked insane.
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#25

(01-12-2019, 12:00 PM)Jody Barton Wrote:  PS we must also acknowledge that Ferrari have changed their suspension system to one closer resembling the one they used in winter testing. That has certainly helped how their car has used its tyres both in qualifying, but more importantly in the race. So it is fair to point out that some of the post summer gains is definitely down to the engineering skill at Ferrari. Prior to summer their car shredded tyres, post summer it's been far better.

Absoutely agree. You've only got to look at Singapore, that was a major surprise for me. They've had a great car for the last three seasons, but they went too far in one direction this year (my opinion). It was the wrong direction.

I think LeClerc has the potential to outperform the car though. If Ferrari can give him a 100% reliable "90% there" car then he will be a real contender next year.
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#26

I think you're right Morini, the issue is that Leclerc is still prone to the "unforced" error. He's matured a lot this year, and is clearly rapid, if he has the car I expect him to be the more likely to challenge out of himself and Vettel. However, if Mercedes give Lewis a car he can race with, well then you'd be a fool to bet against him. We also have Max and the RBR Honda combo which is starting to look like a competitor too. I'm not holding my breath, because I still expect Merc to produce the car to beat next year, but, maybe, just maybe we'll have a proper fight on our hands.
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#27

(01-12-2019, 09:30 AM)morini Wrote:  Were Ferrari bending the rules somewhere after the summer break? Maybe, but who cares? I'd rather that than see innovation stifled.

^^^ Agree with this.

Enjoyed reading your views lads, lets hope as Jody says we have a three team battle for the title next year.

Enjoy the race peeps.

"When a man holds you round the throat, I don't think he has come to apologise" 
Ayrton Senna on Nigel Mansell, SPA 1987.   Angel
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#28

Jody Wrote:
"The most plausible explanation I've heard is that they siphoned fuel off on the out lap and stored it somewhere behind the fuel flow sensor, and then it was used on the next lap when the quali mode was turned on."

This is also the interesting bit for me. If you have two fuel flow sensors in line but the same, I am not sure how you would prevent the same "trick" being pulled.
If the two sensors are different in how they measure the flow and have to be within a tolerance of each other that would potentially prevent the same trick.
For example having something magnetic in the fuel might mess up some sensors (I am sure this isn't allowed but just for illustration) but not other sensors.

Do we know if there is a bleed back or over-pressure system on the fuel "rail" like there is on normal cars so that fuel can be over-pressured but then regulated back to the main tank to keep a fixed pressure on the "rail". I have no idea if they even have fuel rails rather than per-injector feeds but the point is the same in terms of how the fuel is pressurised.

Similarly are there any regs that say what that fuel pressure is? Overpressuring but having clever injectors would have a similar effect as having a "buffer" fuel reservoir would it not? Effectively more fuel would be stored downstream of the pump / sensor and be available for the engine but only or a short period.

I can't remember my Boyles law off hand but pressure, density / volume and temperature are the only things to play with here aren't they?

Putting an additional sensor in the "bleed return" line would certainly stop any shenanigans of this type as it would be obvious that additional fuel had been stored in form of "overpressure" rather than into the engine (I think!).

Again sorry if these seem like daft questions but I have to get my fix in before the dreaded winter lull (We are starting to look forward to the FormulaE!).
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#29

Charles & Ferrari under investigation....

"When a man holds you round the throat, I don't think he has come to apologise" 
Ayrton Senna on Nigel Mansell, SPA 1987.   Angel
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#30

(01-12-2019, 01:39 PM)PapaofGags Wrote:  Charles & Ferrari under investigation....

I hope nothing comes of that. Investigated after the race as well. Sucks.

[edit]
Horner reckons slam dunk disqualification. Again, a team error in under declaring fuel levels. Ferrari need to cut this stuff out next season.
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