[forzaferrari]

You can never trust anyone who sold cars for a living.....mmm

I dont know what you are talking about 

haha - bit of a dig there forza, I actually really liked Bernie, not all he did, or what he said, but a real character of the sport, and as Jody has posted - I should've said Bernie and Max Mosley, there's a great interview of Max, by Brundle, where he tells all, but Bernie knew how to ruffle feathers, no foghorn jokes there - haha

As I said before, us Ferrari fans have very thick skin. Credit where credit is due though, Bernie and Max brought a hell of a lot to the sport.

[morini]

The jury is still out.

Me, I don't think Liberty fit well with the ethos and history of F1. I may be proved wrong, but over time I think they will destroy the sport. A big part of F1 to a lot of fans is what happened in the past. Liberty will bring in a ton of awful city races / street tracks and we'll lose what remains of the much loved iconic circuits.

I wasn't a big Bernie fan (ego bigger than the man), but he earned his stripes as a team manager through the ages. He also knew what was important and what makes the sport tick. Nobody at Liberty has that experience, with the exception perhaps of Ross Brawn. I hope he is vocal enough to keep F1 true to its origins. I worry though.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I'd much rather have Liberty.  bernie was amazing but so corrupt, especially with Max Mosley who was a disgrace.  2007, 2008 ew.  Whether liberty are tough enough as @jody_barton says is a question mark.  But all the problems in F1 are basically from Bernie, and didn't Max want the manufacturers in?  And Bernie swore f1 would always be free to air and then ker-ching he took the money and did a runner!

Max wanted more engine manufacturers in F1 and he succeeded in bringing in Honda, BMW, Toyota and nearly secured VW in the shape of Audi before Bernie scuppered it again. They all started to leave when Max left. Say what you like about his personal life, but Max was bloody good at tying teams down to contracts and rules, and hashing out agreements, afterall, as a barrister it was his bread and butter. There is no question though that under Bernie F1 had become stale, question is whether this lot are any better... for me? The jury is still out.

Hi Jody, great analysis as usual, have been saying to others to put up new threads to discuss here, would love to hear more on the tech side, from you, perhaps something on Chasis design? if you would,  also was going to try to post a thread with poll, on best tracks etc, we had this convo before on sky a while back, think we all agreed on turkey, but can't quite remember, and not sure if you caught Banana's "dream Team" - would be very interested to see your as well - cheers

very funny options on the 3 engine thing by the way - Kudos mate

---

Bernie is a dinosaur, nobody could argue, surely? F1 certainly needs a fresh outlook and Liberty looked like they were making the right kind of noises initially. However, COTA 2017 scared the hell out of me. If that is an indicator of how they are going to market F1 to the worldwide public then I am very worried! That type of American Razzamataz will kill F1 and they need a serious rethink.

F1 needs a Liberty(esque) company who are not American and will respect the history and heritage of the sport. This isn't meant as a racist comment, so don't slate me for that,. It is a cultural thing and IMO liberty are not the right outfit to respect the culture.

Not at all mate, as you know as you made this place for that very reason, this is a safe place to make any remark, without being called stupid names like racist - cheers bud,

[Chloe17b]

is this quoting ? if not in reply to Jody:

With Max Mosley i wasn't thinking spankgate (2009) it was 2007 and 8 when he was out to get Ron and ran the WMSC like his personal army, massively exaggerated spygate, let renault off just to show off his power and just blatantly put his stooge in charge of the stewards. There's that book about Bernie, not 100% credible i know but still, where he and Max joke they fine him $100 for being a twat.

keeping the teams in line is how we have the Strategy Group and the huge bias in how the money is shared, it was all done to divide and rule. bernie like to have teams going bust, for the drama.

So most of the problems Liberty have are from Bernie and Max. Not even getting started on pay TV.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

is this quoting ?  if not in reply to Jody:

With Max Mosley i wasn't thinking spankgate (2009) it was 2007 and 8 when he was out to get Ron and ran the WMSC like his personal army, massively exaggerated spygate, let renault off just to show off his power and just blatantly put his stooge in charge of the stewards.  There's that book about Bernie, not 100% credible i know but still, where he and Max joke they fine him $100 for being a twat.

keeping the teams in line is how we have the Strategy Group and the huge bias in how the money is shared, it was all done to divide and rule.  bernie like to have teams going bust, for the drama.  

So most of the problems Liberty have are from Bernie and Max.  Not even getting started on pay TV.

Ahh, get you now Chloe, not sure if you directly replied to Jody or not, I'm not great at this stuff myself, but as said Morini will make improvements - but back to topic, yeah Jody could give a better answer on that, but not sure about the spygate, or Renault thing, I know why Flavio did it, was a jobs protection thing, as Renault at the time were on the brink of pulling out, but as for spygate, I do think Ron had a lot to answer for on that one, he handled it very poorly, and should've just admitted it straight of, these things happen all the time in F1, such as the reason for "Budlowski's" (is it - I think that's the name) Gardening leave before going to Renault now, though as I said, could be wrong on any of those points, and happy to be corrected - but as I said, Jody for sure will have a better answer

[morini]

is this quoting ? if not in reply to Jody:

Hi Chloe, you can use "reply" to quote a post in entirety, but that generally includes the whole post and any previous quotes as well (you may not want all of that text). I find the best way to quote a post which already has a few replies is to use the "quote" button. Click on "quote" on the posts you want to include (you will see a little green mark to indicate the post is selected for quoting), scroll down to the text box at the bottom and click the blue link "quote these posts now", the text of any posts you selected will then be visible in the text box and you can edit / remove any of the text that isn't relevant to the reply you are making.

Sounds complicated, but it isn't. Once you have done it once you will understand and from then on it will be easy to trim your post replies so they are concise and easy to read. Have a play around, experiment and if you make a mistake nobody will care. It's all a learning experience!

[Chloe17b]

is this quoting ?

, scroll down to the text box at the bottom and click the blue link "quote these posts now",

aha! This is what i was missing, thanks

---

is this quoting ?  if not in reply to Jody:

With Max Mosley i wasn't thinking spankgate (2009) it was 2007 and 8 when he was out to get Ron and ran the WMSC like his personal army, massively exaggerated spygate, let renault off just to show off his power and just blatantly put his stooge in charge of the stewards.  There's that book about Bernie, not 100% credible i know but still, where he and Max joke they fine him $100 for being a twat.

keeping the teams in line is how we have the Strategy Group and the huge bias in how the money is shared, it was all done to divide and rule.  bernie like to have teams going bust, for the drama.  

So most of the problems Liberty have are from Bernie and Max.  Not even getting started on pay TV.

Ahh, get you now Chloe, not sure if you directly replied to Jody or not, I'm not great at this stuff myself, but as said Morini will make improvements - but back to topic, yeah Jody could give a better answer on that, but not sure about the spygate, or Renault thing, I know why Flavio did it, was a jobs protection thing, as Renault at the time were on the brink of pulling out, but as for spygate, I do think Ron had a lot to answer for on that one, he handled it very poorly, and should've just admitted it straight of, these things happen all the time in F1, such as the reason for "Budlowski's" (is it - I think that's the name) Gardening leave before going to Renault now, though as I said, could be wrong on any of those points, and happy to be corrected - but as I said, Jody for sure will have a better answer

Ron was a total baby seal in politics but imo that was no excuse for what Max did which was just a vendetta. Good freaking riddance afaic Ron didn't know anything about the Alonso/Coughlan/Stepney network or those trivial little projects, he just told some stupid lies knowing Max was out to get him because of the breakaway thing and then Max moved the goalposts and made the lies the heinous crime. And the whole thing only kicked off because Max was blanking stepney's reports about ferrari's illegal floor that's why he went to McLaren to get them to ask about it. The dossier was nothing to do with mclaren anyway it was for Honda.

So Liberty are at least 1m times better in this family ) But they have inherited a complete mess. Or bought a complete mess i suppose.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

is this quoting ?

, scroll down to the text box at the bottom and click the blue link "quote these posts now",

aha!  This is what i was missing, thanks

---

is this quoting ?  if not in reply to Jody:

With Max Mosley i wasn't thinking spankgate (2009) it was 2007 and 8 when he was out to get Ron and ran the WMSC like his personal army, massively exaggerated spygate, let renault off just to show off his power and just blatantly put his stooge in charge of the stewards.  There's that book about Bernie, not 100% credible i know but still, where he and Max joke they fine him $100 for being a twat.

keeping the teams in line is how we have the Strategy Group and the huge bias in how the money is shared, it was all done to divide and rule.  bernie like to have teams going bust, for the drama.  

So most of the problems Liberty have are from Bernie and Max.  Not even getting started on pay TV.

Ahh, get you now Chloe, not sure if you directly replied to Jody or not, I'm not great at this stuff myself, but as said Morini will make improvements - but back to topic, yeah Jody could give a better answer on that, but not sure about the spygate, or Renault thing, I know why Flavio did it, was a jobs protection thing, as Renault at the time were on the brink of pulling out, but as for spygate, I do think Ron had a lot to answer for on that one, he handled it very poorly, and should've just admitted it straight of, these things happen all the time in F1, such as the reason for "Budlowski's" (is it - I think that's the name) Gardening leave before going to Renault now, though as I said, could be wrong on any of those points, and happy to be corrected - but as I said, Jody for sure will have a better answer

Ron was a total baby seal in politics but imo that was no excuse for what Max did which was just a vendetta.  Good freaking riddance afaic   Ron didn't know anything about the Alonso/Coughlan/Stepney network or those trivial little projects, he just told some stupid lies knowing Max was out to get him because of the breakaway thing and then Max moved the goalposts and made the lies the heinous crime.  And the whole thing only kicked off because Max was blanking stepney's reports about ferrari's illegal floor that's why he went to McLaren to get them to ask about it.  The dossier was nothing to do with mclaren anyway it was for Honda.

So Liberty are at least 1m times better in this family  )  But they have inherited a complete mess.  Or bought a complete mess i suppose.

8 billions messes, haha - but fair play, like I said, I'm by no means the most knowledgable, and more than happy to learn from anyone with more info, just good to have opinions and facts here without the nonsense of being ridiculed for it - cheers, and as I said before, put up any new threads, topics for peeps to discuss that you feel pertinent,

[Jody Barton]

I have a very different view of Spygate to you Chloe, many in the paddock think McLaren actually got off very lightly, remember Max gave Ron 3 hearings to come clean, and I’m sorry, but saying Ron didn’t know is BS. Did you read the emails? Because I did, and not only was Ron CC’ed in on many of them, he even responded to some of them sooooo... yeah... Max hung him out to dry because giving him the chance to come clean, and he didn’t, that was the issue. Other teams when they fessed up to this stuff (when caught red handed) got off lightly because they admitted culpability. However, in that third hearing Ron was saying it was only these two guys and I knew nothing... then Exhibit A was pulled out and he was shown to be a lying toe rag!

However, even if Max did go after him and McLaren harshly it shows he was willing to do so, and more importantly did so effectively, just proves my point that he was able to keep the teams in line... and he did so. Fast forward to 3 years ago and the rumours swirling around that Ferrari had RBR schematics. It was hushed over all kept quiet and a slap on the wrists was issued, and to this day I think RBR are smouldering about it (rightly so), Max would have sorted it out and Ferrari would have been expelled from the constructors championship and received no money. Love or hate him, he kept people in check, although yes, I think he was quite pleased to catch Ron in a lie.

[Chloe17b]

I have a very different view of Spygate to you Chloe, many in the paddock think McLaren actually got off very lightly, remember Max gave Ron 3 hearings to come clean, and I’m sorry, but saying Ron didn’t know is BS. Did you read the emails? Because I did, and not only was Ron CC’ed in on many of them, he even responded to some of them sooooo... yeah... Max hung him out to dry because giving him the chance to come clean, and he didn’t, that was the issue. Other teams when they fessed up to this stuff (when caught red handed) got off lightly because they admitted culpability. However, in that third hearing Ron was saying it was only these two guys and I knew nothing... then Exhibit A was pulled out and he was shown to be a lying toe rag!

However, even if Max did go after him and McLaren harshly it shows he was willing to do so, and more importantly did so effectively, just proves my point that he was able to keep the teams in line... and he did so. Fast forward to 3 years ago and the rumours swirling around that Ferrari had RBR schematics. It was hushed over all kept quiet and a slap on the wrists was issued, and to this day I think RBR are smouldering about it (rightly so), Max would have sorted it out and Ferrari would have been expelled from the constructors championship and received no money. Love or hate him, he kept people in check, although yes, I think he was quite pleased to catch Ron in a lie.

What did they find though?  there was Fast Fill, tyre gas and quickshift .  Odd pages or ideas that Mike Coughlan brought in to try and get some kudos in the team.  it was so trivial they didn't bother checking their emails knowing there was an audit coming.  there was no evidence they ever used it even after Max did an audit of the 2008 car and that level of copying was just normal at the time like pedro de la rosa said.  Nobody had heard of 'IP' in F1 before then.

Max was accusing Ron of using the dossier, which they never did.  As for renault, what they were caught with was far more, and actually in their computer system, and it was pretty obvious Max just told flav what to do to get off and that was all part of changing the crime as they went along, because that was the only difference Max could use.

i mean i agree ron handled it very badly, but that's a different issue.  even calling it spying was a setup, when it was a leak.