[Jody Barton]

@Purple-banana there was a video showing the effects of F1 cars circulating around a track showing the ‘wake’ and it’s effects using visualisation of a fluid dynamic model. After I think it was 10 laps the air was consistently turbulent, meaning the wings on all cars were losing significant performance. It’s utterly ridiculous to think with the current aero rules we’re going to get many ‘genuine’ over takes. It’s down to tyre performance or quite frankly raw power. The drop off on some of the tyres this season was 0.5 second after 3 laps... yet even that wasn’t enough to allow a driver to breeze past the car in front. We need ground effect, active suspension, and less complicated front wings in particular.

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

Gordo Sixtytwo, like you I’ve been banging on about ground effect for years now, ditto active suspension. Mercedes and RBR’s FRIC suspension systems supposedly cost £50m plus to produce, and were apparently costing northwards of £800k to install on the cars... I think it was Fearnley who said state of the art active suspension rigs cost about £20k to buy in. So... £50m (rumoured) development costs that only really 3 or 4 teams can afford, and a component that can cost as much as most teams chassis, or a cheap affordable alternative that all teams can buy, that does a better job?

Now, I know the FIA banned FRIC and trick suspension systems... my question has always been why? Just un ban active suspension. Legalise ground effect systems again. I’ve not heard a sane, or legitimate argument against these two proposals, and when I’ve Asked F1 engineers whether they’d be opposed to them, they’ve said no, they’d welcome them back. Just do it, and leave the engines alone for now. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have been absolutely clear publicly... the MGU-H is going nowhere.

I agree 100%. Ross Brawn is letting himself get caught up in a needless fight. He will get burned Italian style.

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Gordo Sixtytwo, like you I’ve been banging on about ground effect for years now, ditto active suspension. Mercedes and RBR’s FRIC suspension systems supposedly cost £50m plus to produce, and were apparently costing northwards of £800k to install on the cars... I think it was Fearnley who said state of the art active suspension rigs cost about £20k to buy in. So... £50m (rumoured) development costs that only really 3 or 4 teams can afford, and a component that can cost as much as most teams chassis, or a cheap affordable alternative that all teams can buy, that does a better job?

Now, I know the FIA banned FRIC and trick suspension systems... my question has always been why? Just un ban active suspension. Legalise ground effect systems again. I’ve not heard a sane, or legitimate argument against these two proposals, and when I’ve Asked F1 engineers whether they’d be opposed to them, they’ve said no, they’d welcome them back. Just do it, and leave the engines alone for now. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have been absolutely clear publicly... the MGU-H is going nowhere.

I agree 100%. Ross Brawn is letting himself get caught up in a needless fight. He will get burned Italian style.

Jody, did you read the latest nonsense? Now there is a fight brewing over steering influenced ride heights. It seems some clever engineers have figured out a way to manipulate ride heights through movement of the steering wheel. Here we go again. Another fight to ban a system that tries to replicate a benefit of active suspension.

[Jody Barton]

Gordo Sixtytwo, yup I heard about it, and it’s all to do with ‘heave springs’ and variable dampeners. I wrote somewhere on these boards a comment regarding the RBR pitching a yawing towards the end of the year, first noticeable in Malaysia, most noticeable in Mexico. I said RBR were up to something hinky with their suspension again... and so it has proved. Merc and Ferrari are working on systems and apparently the Mercs had it fitted at Abu Dhabi... just give them bloody active suspension and be done with it. Why are the leading teams investing in these systems? To negate the wakes their cars produce. It’s mental, especially when there’s a very, very cheap solution available that all teams could use, no problem.

PS. Just read Mercedes proposal was to bring back an FIA standardised Active Suspension system with FIA software. Cheap, easy to police, and better for all concerned, and it would close the field right up. Why can’t the FIA and LM just be that sensible and pragmatic?

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

Purple Banana, nice post on wake turbulence.
Just saw a video interview with Toto Wolff. Did anyone see it yet. He confirmed that MB want to keep the MGU-H, and that Mercedes are prepared to supply it to OEM who can't source their own H suppliers. Guess we all saw this coming. Any thoughts on how this will affect the engine negotiations and potential incoming manufacturers, such as Porsche? Anyone heard anything? I recently mused on another site that perhaps Porsche would be a good fit to buy a piece of McLaren. The piece that McLaren had to buy back from Ron Dennis. Rekindle the old McLaren Tag Porsche days again. Might be a good fit especially if Porsche want to enter F1 and if they can get an MGU-H from MB. Any opinions?

[ReneSpeksnijder]

Purple Banana, nice post on wake turbulence.
Just saw a video interview with Toto Wolff. Did anyone see it yet. He confirmed that MB want to keep the MGU-H, and that Mercedes are prepared to supply it to OEM who can't source their own H suppliers. Guess we all saw this coming. Any thoughts on how this will affect the engine negotiations and potential incoming manufacturers, such as Porsche? Anyone heard anything? I recently mused on another site that perhaps Porsche would be a good fit to buy a piece of McLaren. The piece that McLaren had to buy back from Ron Dennis. Rekindle the old McLaren Tag Porsche days again. Might be a good fit especially if Porsche want to enter F1 and if they can get an MGU-H from MB. Any opinions?

Yes! New engine rules: flat 6 cylinders, all air cooled :-) On a serious note, I don't think any manufacturer wants to buy an MGU-H from Merc to be honest. If they do they basically admit they can't engineer one themselves which is not very good for your brand I think. Anyway, I have an automotive engineering background, been working on cars my whole life, but I can't warm up to the V6 hybrid at all. Technical marvels, but way to complicated for racing. Just give me a lump with high power output and noise.. I know noise is just efficiency losses, but I really need to hear something trackside. Nowadays I enjoy MotoGP more then F1 if I'm honest.

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

Hi Rene, yes I miss the old NA engines too, especially the V12 & V10's but those days are gone. On the subject of MGU-H, I wonder if BOSCH can build one for F1. They have extensive experience with thermo electric devices. I believe they are still an independent company and one of the biggest automotive suppliers in Germany.

[morini]

Hi Rene, yes I miss the old NA engines too, especially the V12 & V10's but those days are gone. On the subject of MGU-H, I wonder if BOSCH can build one for F1. They have extensive experience with thermo electric devices. I believe they are still an independent company and one of the biggest automotive suppliers in Germany.

An independent  is probably the only way other major engine teams will accept a supplied component as fundamental as MHU-H (or K). I think it's a feasible concept, particularly if there was more than one independent supplier.

[Jody Barton]

The truth is Ferrari have nailed the MGU-H as well, and there are signs Renault are there, or thereabouts. The issue for Renault is consistent deployment apparently, and Honda... well... erm... I don’t think they have a clue. On the kinetic recovery side though both leading LMP-1 teams Toyota and Porsche really pushed the envelope on kinetic recovery, and if we are to believe the mumbling in the F1 paddock Ferrari Now actually lead on kinetic recovery in F1. I want to see what next year brings, I still think Mercedes will have a reliability edge, but I think their peak performance advantage won’t be anywhere near as big.

[The Professor]

The truth is Ferrari have nailed the MGU-H as well

Time will tell on that I think. My 2018 New Year wishes are for an intense 4 team battle for the F1 WDC and WCC. My head says Mercedes have the muscle and resources to hold off any challengers, but at some point their reign will come to an end.

Hamilton to Ferrari in 2019, just when they come good. The man has golden balls.

[morini]

The man has golden balls.

The Silver Arrows and the Golden Orbs. Sounds like a Game of Thrones episode!