[Foghorn Leghorn]

the compromise is coming folks - but 

Ross Brawn says Formula 1 chiefs are ready to address manufacturers' concerns about new engine proposals for 2021, but insists there is no going back from the push to get rid of the current turbo hybrid V6 power unit.

[Chloe17b]

the compromise is coming folks - but 

Ross Brawn says Formula 1 chiefs are ready to address manufacturers' concerns about new engine proposals for 2021, but insists there is no going back from the push to get rid of the current turbo hybrid V6 power unit.

FOM / LM haven't had to fight such united teams before, i think they're up against it.  toto seems to phone everyone in the paddock every day and all the OEM's want the H.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

the compromise is coming folks - but 

Ross Brawn says Formula 1 chiefs are ready to address manufacturers' concerns about new engine proposals for 2021, but insists there is no going back from the push to get rid of the current turbo hybrid V6 power unit.

FOM / LM haven't had to fight such united teams before, i think they're up against it.  toto seems to phone everyone in the paddock every day and all the OEM's want the H.

ahh just caught you there Chloe, seen you on but wasn't sure where to find you, will take a bit of getting used to, as it's pretty fledgling and a new format, but good to have you on board, check Jody's Rake thing if you want something technical, and as promised there's no wallies here

but to stay on topic, your right - the Manufacturers are all on the same page - it's customer teams against manufacturers

[Jody Barton]

The fact as Chloe says that Renault, Honda, Ferrari and Mercedes are all signing from the same hymn sheet with regard the MGU-H remaining means that the FIA, FOM and LM have one hell of a fight on their hands. Heat energy recovery isn't just important to making normal combustion engines more efficient, it is of paramount importance to the future of electronic motors as well. Large amounts of energy are lost in current electric vehicles due to heat production not only in the motors, but also the batteries. Even the WEC constructors had started to look at heat energy recovery, notably Porsche and Toyota. I think a number of road manufacturers might be playing mischief here, because I'm not 100% convinced Ford or Jaguar are truly interested in F1, I think many are more concerned about the march Mercedes, Renault and Honda have got on HER. Hell Mercedes are saying they now have unit's on dyno's achieving over 50% efficiency... and that ain't coming from kinetic recovery! Ditto Ferrari seem confident of achieving 45% or thereabouts with next seasons engines and Renault too are making noises that they think they'll be closing in on similar figures to Ferrari... even Honda on dynos this year achieved 37%. Truth be told I don't think we'll lose the HER systems from these engines, when you have all 4 current manufacturers saying nope, I don't think you can push it through. At the very least the decision on new engines is being delayed beyond 2021, and if it isn't you seriously risk losing all current manufacturers, and no, I don't think the threats are idle.

[Chloe17b]

The fact as Chloe says that Renault, Honda, Ferrari and Mercedes are all signing from the same hymn sheet with regard the MGU-H remaining means that the FIA, FOM and LM have one hell of a fight on their hands. Heat energy recovery isn't just important to making normal combustion engines more efficient, it is of paramount importance to the future of electronic motors as well. Large amounts of energy are lost in current electric vehicles due to heat production not only in the motors, but also the batteries. Even the WEC constructors had started to look at heat energy recovery, notably Porsche and Toyota. I think a number of road manufacturers might be playing mischief here, because I'm not 100% convinced Ford or Jaguar are truly interested in F1, I think many are more concerned about the march Mercedes, Renault and Honda have got on HER. Hell Mercedes are saying they now have unit's on dyno's achieving over 50% efficiency... and that ain't coming from kinetic recovery! Ditto Ferrari seem confident of achieving 45% or thereabouts with next seasons engines and Renault too are making noises that they think they'll be closing in on similar figures to Ferrari... even Honda on dynos this year achieved 37%. Truth be told I don't think we'll lose the HER systems from these engines, when you have all 4 current manufacturers saying nope, I don't think you can push it through. At the very least the decision on new engines is being delayed beyond 2021, and if it isn't you seriously risk losing all current manufacturers, and no, I don't think the threats are idle.

Yes good post.  They are an axis aren't they?   it's an issue I think whether the LM people are as tough as Bernie.  The teams all knew with bernie it was never a bluff, but with the new boys i don't think it's the same.  And i do think Toto is a factor, as he's more of an independent business type than anybody else, with the others being basically employees and he is very confident.  Super friendly but as Christian found out he can dish it out too, and i think he might make the difference whether a breakaway is a real threat this time that they can bargain with.

And from the OEM's point of view as you say the H is massive.

[PapaofGags]

Found this story on the Planet F1 site, worth a read. >

Ex-Formula 1 owner Bernie Ecclestone was as opinionated as ever when giving his thoughts on Liberty's tenure and Ferrari's threats to quit the sport.
The one-year anniversary since Liberty officially took over from Ecclestone is fast approaching and the 87-year-old feels the new owners have yet to achieve anything in that time.
"Democracy has no place in Formula 1," Ecclestone told F1 reporter Roger Benoit who visited him in Brazil.
"The new owners will soon realise this, because so far they have achieved nothing."

As we all know F1 teams cant agree on much so change might take a while, this I totally agree with. >
"Democracy has no place in Formula 1"

[Jody Barton]

The trouble remains the fact that the engine manufacturers want a continuation of the current engine regs with minor amendments. Until one of them breaks ranks, which doesn’t look likely right now, then Liberty Media and the FIA can go whistle. They have no chance. They can’t lose all four manufacturers, it’s just not possible, even if they got Porsche and Toyota in.

[Gordo Sixtytwo]

The fact as Chloe says that Renault, Honda, Ferrari and Mercedes are all signing from the same hymn sheet with regard the MGU-H remaining means that the FIA, FOM and LM have one hell of a fight on their hands. Heat energy recovery isn't just important to making normal combustion engines more efficient, it is of paramount importance to the future of electronic motors as well. Large amounts of energy are lost in current electric vehicles due to heat production not only in the motors, but also the batteries. Even the WEC constructors had started to look at heat energy recovery, notably Porsche and Toyota. I think a number of road manufacturers might be playing mischief here, because I'm not 100% convinced Ford or Jaguar are truly interested in F1, I think many are more concerned about the march Mercedes, Renault and Honda have got on HER. Hell Mercedes are saying they now have unit's on dyno's achieving over 50% efficiency... and that ain't coming from kinetic recovery! Ditto Ferrari seem confident of achieving 45% or thereabouts with next seasons engines and Renault too are making noises that they think they'll be closing in on similar figures to Ferrari... even Honda on dynos this year achieved 37%. Truth be told I don't think we'll lose the HER systems from these engines, when you have all 4 current manufacturers saying nope, I don't think you can push it through. At the very least the decision on new engines is being delayed beyond 2021, and if it isn't you seriously risk losing all current manufacturers, and no, I don't think the threats are idle.

Ross Brawn is making a fatal mistake. So is Chase Carey. If both of them expect the manufacturers to concede, who are led by the ultimate ball breaker, Sergio "the Canadese" Marchionne, they are mistaken. Sergio may be Italian by birth but he has a sizable streak of North American business acumen. He doesn't seem one to prefer the refined art of negotiating or discussing like the Europeans prefer. He gets right to the point tells you the way it is going to be. His way. He knows he has the power and is not afraid to use it. I believe him when he says he would prefer not to leave F1 but if he is forced to, he will. If he does he will take the teams with him. The teams will follow Ferrari. He already has Mercedes, Renault, and Honda (Honda are laying low but they know they have to follow the others, they also like the MGU-H, although you would wonder if they are masochists. The only conclusion is that the MGU-H does indeed have future road car production relevance). The independent teams have no choice but to follow. What racing promoter or TV broadcaster will pay for a bunch of names only the hardcore F1 fans recognize? None. And we all know it.
  So do we expect John Malone to sit idly by, while his chosen lieutenants Carey, Brawn and Bratches screw things up and crater his $8 Billion investment to zero? I don't think so. Neither does Marchionne. Sergio has Liberty by the balls and will damn sure squeeze them. He will also crush them if he has to. I have no doubt. Brawn has to back off and focus on the one thing he can fix. The racing. He has to reverse the over reliance on wing and overbody aerodynamics for downforce. 
  By now all of you probably recognize my ID tag name due to my constant complaints about the current state of F1 aerodynamics. I have been complaining for 3 years now and I'm sure everyone is fed up with me by now. However, we are now starting to see racing regulators wake up and realize that wings do not work properly in turbulent air. F1 wings are no different to aircraft wings. Both are negatively affected by turbulence. There are two types of turbulence. Atmospheric and wake turbulence. Wake turbulence is the worst for wing performance. The complex vortices have a horrendous effect on wing performance. Aircraft avoid it at all costs. That's why there is a time separation on take offs so as to allow the wake turbulence to dissipate. F1 wings have to operate in wake turbulence. Not only that they also have to sit there in it for as long as the trailing car follows the lead car. It is no wonder that the cars can't get close to each other to set up for a pass. Hence no close racing and overtaking. IndyCar has recognized this for their 2018 cars. You should all know that they have reduced and simplified their wing and overbody aerodynamic downforce devices and increased the ground effects downforce. In superspeedway trim the 2018 IndyCar is supposed to produce 88% of the downforce generated by the car from the floor.They didn't need to use skirts either. Nothing drives me more crazy than the so called F1 experts who think ground effects automatically means skirts and crazy glued to the ground rail like downforce. Nothing could be further from the truth. The overall downforce load can stay the same. All they need to do is get most of it from the floor and less from the wings. The other thing that drives crazy is that all these experts point to crashes that were caused by ground effects. The truth is not one crash from the 1977 to 1982 was cause by a skirt failure. There were crashes caused by suspension failure, and also by cars that had excessively stiff springs, which were caused by the banning of skirts for the 1981 season. The two crashes of 1982, Gilles Villeneuve (fatal) and Didier Pironi (career ending) were caused by wheel to wheel contact that launched the cars airborne. GE had nothing to do with it. The FISA led manufacturer teams led by Ferrari wanted ground effects banned because the FOCA led English teams were better at aerodynamics. Anyway a return to more ground effects and a mostly standard active suspension is realistically achievable. This would improve the racing and save the teams a considerable amount of money. The smaller less wealthy teams could better compete with the bigger teams.
This is where Ross Brawn should be focusing his attention instead of initiating a full scale war with Marchionne and the manufacturers. If the racing gets better so will the income. If the teams are also spending less then the issue of income distribution gets easier to solve. Marchionne himself recently said that the boring Abu Dhabi finale had nothing to do with engines. Finally the significant players in F1 are starting to wake up. What I would like to know is why all these experts in F1 have taken this long to realize the mistake that F1 has made in relying too heavily on complex overbody aerodynamics? It is the number one killer of close racing and overtaking. It is also the number one killer of F1 budgets. Ross Brawn should know this. He could fix this problem for 2019 instead of waiting for 2021. One thing is for sure, he won't get the manufacturers to agree to his engine proposal. If Brawn is not careful he will get hung out to dry by Carey. Brawn will take the fall if negotiations do not improve. Marchionne has already alluded to this. Marchionne said he has a very good relationship with Carey. They talk frequently. He also called Brawn "Moses". Marchionne said "when I talk to Moses' boss (Carey), he tells me it was just his (Brawn's) opinion". There you have it. Carey is playing the good cop vs bad cop game. Brawn is the bad cop who will take the fall if the manufacturers get too close to withdrawing from F1. I hope for Ross Brawn's sake that he wakes up and realizes the game he is playing is a lot more dangerous than he may think.

[Jody Barton]

Gordo Sixtytwo, like you I’ve been banging on about ground effect for years now, ditto active suspension. Mercedes and RBR’s FRIC suspension systems supposedly cost £50m plus to produce, and were apparently costing northwards of £800k to install on the cars... I think it was Fearnley who said state of the art active suspension rigs cost about £20k to buy in. So... £50m (rumoured) development costs that only really 3 or 4 teams can afford, and a component that can cost as much as most teams chassis, or a cheap affordable alternative that all teams can buy, that does a better job?

Now, I know the FIA banned FRIC and trick suspension systems... my question has always been why? Just un ban active suspension. Legalise ground effect systems again. I’ve not heard a sane, or legitimate argument against these two proposals, and when I’ve Asked F1 engineers whether they’d be opposed to them, they’ve said no, they’d welcome them back. Just do it, and leave the engines alone for now. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have been absolutely clear publicly... the MGU-H is going nowhere.

[Purple-banana]

Just to add to your comments re: seriousness of wake turbulence in aviation - it's not just limited to take-offs, the entire time an aircraft is airborne, air traffic controllers are separating aircraft - laterally & vertically - to keep them clear of each others' wake turbulence.

Occasionally the separation isn't enough and you'll see sensationalised news stories about planes "dropping thousands of feet in seconds" or very rarely stories like this: http://flightservicebureau.org/enroute-a...side-down/ (These aircraft were in the cruise, passing in opposite directions with a relative speed differential in excess of 1000mph, it reportedly took 1-2 minutes before the Challenger encountered the turbulence - that's 15-30 miles minimum behind the A380 by this point - and it was still strong enough to toss the Challenger around like a toy and write-off the air-frame.)

There are formula to determine how strong, long lasting and where wake turbulence dissipates. I don't recall it off the top of my head, but suffice to say, it's very strong, lasts a long time and spreads out over a huge area before it completely clears.

These cars and drivers are being affected by it from the second the lights go out until the chequered flag falls. Something needs to change :-(